I should have written "you can charge without a dedicated circuit". One still might want or even "need" a new circuit, if one wants or "needs" to run another high-power item at the same time.
Aptera again has an advantage there, taking about 60% less time to charge than a typical BEV, leaving the circuit more often available to power something else.
@Ken Kobayashi Thanks for confirming you don't need a dedicated circuit.
Your experience matches mine, doing what I wrote above: "avoid using anything that will flip the breaker while charging a car.". One also must be careful of items which can turn themselves on, like a fridge or A/C.
I guess we disagree on the meaning of "need." If we have to avoid using certain appliances when I'm charging a car, that's not an acceptable long-term situation for me or my wife. We *need* a better solution than that. Which is why I installed an L2 EVSE in our garage, on a separate breaker.
So I have a few of those solar tube lights in my house. They are not as bright as the outside light. The light is much more diffused and I highly doubt that you'd get anywhere near a normal outdoor rate of charge. Park outside or just plug in if you must be indoors. The power usage is still very low.
...and you can't make blanket statements about "all EVs" because every manufacturer has different caveats and parameters for their vehicles.
My Clarity PHEV has a 17 kWh (nominal, 13 kWh usable) pack with a 6.6 kW, 32 A onboard charger. It has only L1 and L2 charging capability and it will NOT precondition using L1 current - it will use the traction pack and then attempt to replace the depleted charge. On L2 it will use the traction pack and recharge simultaneously. Honda recommends NOT preconditioning while L1 charging and also recommends using a dedicated 15A circuit or a 15A circuit that has no other load drawing from it. As @n.bruce.nelson mentioned, there's a significant difference between a 1 or 2 minute draw and a continuous, hours-long draw.
If I recall correctly, Hyundai/Kia have similar caveats and recommendations for their Kona EV and E Niro models.
I believe my original point was that L1 works fine without a dedicated circuit, based on my own 5.5+ years of doing so on a shared 1946 15A circuit.
It of course depends on the circuit's amps (most newer circuits are at least 20A), & WHAT it's sharing with, & whether you want to take the time to add up the amps & avoid using anything that will flip the breaker while charging a car.
In much the same manner, even though they're not recommended, extension cords work fine IF you use a thick enough gauge for it's length & the amps of the EVSE, based on my own 5.5+ years of doing so on a 25' 14ga, my friend on a 100' 10ga, & others reporting 50' 12ga works fine.
It's just easier & safer for the manual to say "dedicated circuit" & "no extension" than to try to explain how to figure it out.
@Kerbe #12705 LOL! One actually CAN make certain blanket statements about "all EVs", as YOU did Jan 23, & the first part of your statement there is correct: All EVs DO have a low-end HV batt buffer.
@kiteboarder , your experience may not be universal. I, for one, know that when I charge my Volt through a L1 charger, I have to be very careful about what else I turn on at the same time. The Volt charger + space heater + Christmas lights will definitely overload the circuit.
I've preconditioned my own EV several times on L1, at two different old buildings, including my 1946 garage noted below:
As reference points:
- My blender: 11.5A
- My vacuum cleaner: 12A
- My L1 EVSE: 12A
- My microwave: 13.5A
EV's L1 cords all use only 12A, to plug into the weakest common 15A circuit. Even after-market cords use a maximum of 16A on L1, for use on a common 20A circuit.
Their capacity isn't increased by preconditioning. If it needs a bit more power it just draws it from the EV battery.
My manual doesn't advise a dedicated circuit, it's just "recommended that the EVSE is connected to an AC outlet on a circuit which is not electrically loaded by other devices.". I guess my blender manual should recommend that too!
For example, mine works fine on my 1946 garage's 15A circuit that's shared with the apartment above it, where I guess they nearly never use more than 3A on that circuit: In over 5 years with a BEV as my only car, the circuit breaker has only kicked twice.
The current limits are to control heat caused by resisitance. A blender, with short, intermittent operation may not built up enough heat to be a problem.
The relevant difference between an appliance (e.g. vacuum cleaner) and an EVSE is the duration. The longer it runs, the more likely you'll end up running other appliances at the same time. Maybe your garage outlet can handle a shop vac, table saw, space heater or an EVSE. Probably even 2 of those at the same time. But the EVSE will be running for many hours, so its power is IN ADDITION to whatever else you may use at the same time.
@Ken Kobayashi Exactly! That's why I always say the 40-mile average US drive recharges on L1 during 8 hours of SLEEP. Most of us don't run our garage heater, table saw or vacuum while asleep. 😉
I've preconditioned my own EV several times on L1, at two different old buildings, including my 1946 garage noted below:
As reference points:
- My blender: 11.5A
- My vacuum cleaner: 12A
- My L1 EVSE: 12A
- My microwave: 13.5A
EV's L1 cords all use only 12A, to plug into the weakest common 15A circuit. Even after-market cords use a maximum of 16A on L1, for use on a common 20A circuit.
Their capacity isn't increased by preconditioning. If it needs a bit more power it just draws it from the EV battery.
My manual doesn't advise a dedicated circuit, it's just "recommended that the EVSE is connected to an AC outlet on a circuit which is not electrically loaded by other devices.". I guess my blender manual should recommend that too!
For example, mine works fine on my 1946 garage's 15A circuit that's shared with the apartment above it, where I guess they nearly never use more than 3A on that circuit: In over 5 years with a BEV as my only car, the circuit breaker has only kicked twice.
@kiteboarder Your blender isn't drawing power for hours on end: My blender won't run for more than a minute before it automatically shuts off. "Peak draw" is different than "continuous draw."
Both Hyundai and Kia, for example, recommend using their L1 cords only occasionally and most EV manuals (like yours) recommend either dedicated or otherwise unencumbered 15 Amp circuits.
Aptera is effectively more efficient, at 1.8kWh/100mi.
My point was that adding a 240V supply in order to reduce loss may be worthwhile for a current EV, but maybe not for an Aptera.
To gain 4 kWh of electricity (40 miles of range), a "full-solar" Aptera will need to sit for a full day in direct sunlight and an EV will run with only 4 kWh of power added to its "dead" traction pack. It's a bit like coasting into a gas station & adding 1 gallon of gas to a 40mpg car, only better, because the electrons don't slosh around to become inaccessible in the battery.
@kiteboarder Neither do they overflow the tank and wash down the side of the vehicle - or clog filters with sludge!
One thing that hasn't been mentioned - and is part of the EV ethos - is that most (if not all) manufacturers advise that anyone using L1 charging do so on a dedicated circuit: One receptacle, one breaker. EVs suck on the electron straw and they suck HARD: Heat-related events are not uncommon with old wiring.
The benefits of having a L2 EVSE include the fact that it's a dedicated circuit with its own breaker. In many parts of the country grants are available to defray part of the cost and, in some cases, manufacturers give away "branded" EVSEs with the purchase of the vehicle. It will come to be seen as a "value added" feature at resale time.
For cabin preconditioning, if the vehicle is plugged into an L2 EVSE, power that is drawn from the traction pack for heating and cooling is simultaneously replaced so there's no loss of range. At this point in time there is no EV that can precondition while connected to L1 - the current draw would be too great for residential circuitry.
If you coast in to work as your Aptera dies from a weekend road-trip, & all the chargers are taken, but it's sunny, when you leave work you can drive about 40 miles.
Recharging the exact same 100 mile drive on both cars:
- My EV uses about 29kWh from the grid on L1, with 15% loss. Total loss 4.4kWh
- Aptera uses about 12kWh from the grid on L1, with 15% loss. Total loss 1.8kWh
Low-voltage (& high) battery buffers are necessary. They protect the battery from damage, & therefore are NEVER used. Modern BEVs (after the first Leaf) have larger buffers, to extend battery lifespan by never ever using them.
@kiteboarder But comparing cumulative loss doesn't negate the fact that they have exactly the same level of efficiency - and you state it, 15% loss.
Yes, traction pack have built-in upper and lower buffers to protect the pack - but the majority of EV drivers have found that their overall experience with the vehicle is best if kept between 10% and 80% SoC, so that's 10% in addition to the "hidden" buffer. Repeatedly draining the battery is just as stressful to the chemistry as is repeated full-charging. Having nothing but 4 kW in the pack at the end of the workday is rather like having only the "low fuel reserve" in the tank of an ice vehicle.
Creative idea. You would get a faster charge more efficiently using an EVSE. Use the money for the lights and install a 240V system. The problem with the solar cells is that it is only about 25% efficient, so putting one watt of electricity in the light will translate into 1/4 watt being sent out from the solar panels. There should also be an interface that takes the charging current and converts it into a battery charge, which are commonly about 85 to 89% efficient. Anytime you feel heat, it is a loss of energy. Hope this helps.
@OceanDragon A very good point! Plus, to gain 4 kWh of electricity (40 miles of range), a "full-solar" Aptera will need to sit for a full day in direct sunlight and an EV will not run with only 4 kWh of power in its traction pack. A Level 2 EVSE is the most efficient way to use AC power to charge an EV - there's significantly less loss as opposed to using a Level 1 cable and a 15 Amp wall socket.
Agreed except for the part that seems unclear: If I discharge my standard BEV until it stops, and then add 4kWh of power to its traction pack, it will run. For about 18 city miles.
If Aptera gets 4kWh from the sun every day, that will run it about 20 miles home, & back to work.
Also, Aptera on Level 1 is more efficient than any other EV on Level 2. Its total charging efficiency loss is 60% less than any other EV, since it is charging for 60% less time from any given source. Of course Aptera is even more efficient on L2, but there's much less to gain there, than on other EVs.
@kiteboarder All EVs like to have a buffer at the "bottom" of the battery - to accommodate sudden drains - like encountering a hill, needing to pass another vehicle or fighting a headwind. What I was saying was that a fully-discharged Aptera that was charged in the sun all day and then driven to full discharge would never have the opportunity to develop a significant buffer.
Charging efficiency differences between Level 1 and Level 2 are about amperage and cable gauge - not about the vehicle being charged. Charging less efficiently for a shorter time is not more efficient than charging less efficiently for a longer time.
Your conflation of range and state of charge confuses the issue: A 60 kWh battery with a 3.2 kW charger will take longer to charge than a 60 kWh battery with a 6.6 kW charger and a vehicle that's capable of accepting 32 Amps will charge faster than one limited to 16 Amps. Yes, Aptera might require 60% less electricity to go the same distance as another EV but that's about range and NOT about state of charge. If I need to fully-charge the traction pack I need to fully-charge it, not 40% charge it and say that it will go the same distance as a less efficient EV.
I should have written "you can charge without a dedicated circuit". One still might want or even "need" a new circuit, if one wants or "needs" to run another high-power item at the same time.
Aptera again has an advantage there, taking about 60% less time to charge than a typical BEV, leaving the circuit more often available to power something else.
@Ken Kobayashi Thanks for confirming you don't need a dedicated circuit.
Your experience matches mine, doing what I wrote above: "avoid using anything that will flip the breaker while charging a car.". One also must be careful of items which can turn themselves on, like a fridge or A/C.
So I have a few of those solar tube lights in my house. They are not as bright as the outside light. The light is much more diffused and I highly doubt that you'd get anywhere near a normal outdoor rate of charge. Park outside or just plug in if you must be indoors. The power usage is still very low.
...and you can't make blanket statements about "all EVs" because every manufacturer has different caveats and parameters for their vehicles.
My Clarity PHEV has a 17 kWh (nominal, 13 kWh usable) pack with a 6.6 kW, 32 A onboard charger. It has only L1 and L2 charging capability and it will NOT precondition using L1 current - it will use the traction pack and then attempt to replace the depleted charge. On L2 it will use the traction pack and recharge simultaneously. Honda recommends NOT preconditioning while L1 charging and also recommends using a dedicated 15A circuit or a 15A circuit that has no other load drawing from it. As @n.bruce.nelson mentioned, there's a significant difference between a 1 or 2 minute draw and a continuous, hours-long draw.
If I recall correctly, Hyundai/Kia have similar caveats and recommendations for their Kona EV and E Niro models.
I've preconditioned my own EV several times on L1, at two different old buildings, including my 1946 garage noted below:
As reference points:
- My blender: 11.5A
- My vacuum cleaner: 12A
- My L1 EVSE: 12A
- My microwave: 13.5A
EV's L1 cords all use only 12A, to plug into the weakest common 15A circuit. Even after-market cords use a maximum of 16A on L1, for use on a common 20A circuit.
Their capacity isn't increased by preconditioning. If it needs a bit more power it just draws it from the EV battery.
My manual doesn't advise a dedicated circuit, it's just "recommended that the EVSE is connected to an AC outlet on a circuit which is not electrically loaded by other devices.". I guess my blender manual should recommend that too!
For example, mine works fine on my 1946 garage's 15A circuit that's shared with the apartment above it, where I guess they nearly never use more than 3A on that circuit: In over 5 years with a BEV as my only car, the circuit breaker has only kicked twice.
and Garage door also fine for me....
With an Aptera:
- 4kWh of solar gets you 40 miles
- There's no more need for a dedicated breaker than there is for a vacuum
- Preconditioning works on L1
- There's insignificant total loss on L1, compared to L2
I've preconditioned my own EV several times on L1, at two different old buildings, including my 1946 garage noted below:
As reference points:
- My blender: 11.5A
- My vacuum cleaner: 12A
- My L1 EVSE: 12A
- My microwave: 13.5A
EV's L1 cords all use only 12A, to plug into the weakest common 15A circuit. Even after-market cords use a maximum of 16A on L1, for use on a common 20A circuit.
Their capacity isn't increased by preconditioning. If it needs a bit more power it just draws it from the EV battery.
My manual doesn't advise a dedicated circuit, it's just "recommended that the EVSE is connected to an AC outlet on a circuit which is not electrically loaded by other devices.". I guess my blender manual should recommend that too!
For example, mine works fine on my 1946 garage's 15A circuit that's shared with the apartment above it, where I guess they nearly never use more than 3A on that circuit: In over 5 years with a BEV as my only car, the circuit breaker has only kicked twice.
L1 charging loss on my EV is 4.4kWh/100mi.
Aptera is effectively more efficient, at 1.8kWh/100mi.
My point was that adding a 240V supply in order to reduce loss may be worthwhile for a current EV, but maybe not for an Aptera.
To gain 4 kWh of electricity (40 miles of range), a "full-solar" Aptera will need to sit for a full day in direct sunlight and an EV will run with only 4 kWh of power added to its "dead" traction pack. It's a bit like coasting into a gas station & adding 1 gallon of gas to a 40mpg car, only better, because the electrons don't slosh around to become inaccessible in the battery.
If you coast in to work as your Aptera dies from a weekend road-trip, & all the chargers are taken, but it's sunny, when you leave work you can drive about 40 miles.
Recharging the exact same 100 mile drive on both cars:
- My EV uses about 29kWh from the grid on L1, with 15% loss. Total loss 4.4kWh
- Aptera uses about 12kWh from the grid on L1, with 15% loss. Total loss 1.8kWh
Low-voltage (& high) battery buffers are necessary. They protect the battery from damage, & therefore are NEVER used. Modern BEVs (after the first Leaf) have larger buffers, to extend battery lifespan by never ever using them.
Creative idea. You would get a faster charge more efficiently using an EVSE. Use the money for the lights and install a 240V system. The problem with the solar cells is that it is only about 25% efficient, so putting one watt of electricity in the light will translate into 1/4 watt being sent out from the solar panels. There should also be an interface that takes the charging current and converts it into a battery charge, which are commonly about 85 to 89% efficient. Anytime you feel heat, it is a loss of energy. Hope this helps.
Could be, but the cost of installing them would likely not be worth the energy gained.