We know solar cells don't last forever. As this is a seldom charge vehicle, where would an owner go to have them diagnosed/replaced in the event of failure, and what would it cost?
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Earlier today I came across a report that asserted that the flexible PV panels made with the slightly bendable mono crystalline silicon cells suffer from alarmingly rapid performance degradation as compared to the decades that traditional rigid panels are expected to last. The reputable source suggested that poor heat dissipation provided by the encapsulating plastic was a likely contributor. In contrast, the glass sandwiching typical of rigid PV panels provides a lot better thermal conductivity.
This all matters because Aptera has stated they intent to use these sort of bendable cells because they can conform to the body panel curves. As I understand it, they will be embedding them in resin, which I read as not significantly different than plastic. Many questions come to mind at this point.
I wonder if the test rig that I gather Chris had set up for estimating solar range used flexible panels of this sort or conventional rigid panels, and if the former, did he see and assess the performance degradation?
If they are going to effectively avert this reported rapid cell degradation in their body panels, they are going to have to be very clever about it with maybe high thermal conductivity resins, heat sinks, active cooling, etc. and make darned sure it all actually works to ensure respectable cell performance over time. I will definitely be looking to hear reassurance of that as things proceed.
I am predisposed to a high degree of faith that the folks at Aptera will make sure to get this right along with everything else. This is just one more area of concern in a monumental task they have taken on. I sure don’t want to be the guy complaining about rapidly failing PV performance after I get mine. I would just as soon not have to test their warranty service over this point, or any other.
Aptera has IP around making the solar cells easy to replace if damaged, or if new tech becomes available that is significantly better. I expect that over the life of my ownership, that I will see the cells on my Aptera become significantly better - not worse. I would be interested in seeing the source of your report, and if it is about the same kind of cells Aptera is likely to be using.
Even the old 2e used the roof solar panels to vent the Aptera
The current Aptera will have solar venting to keep the interior temp close to outside.And if I recall correctly ... exhaust out the perforated grate around the license plate
solar cover wont do enough to keep cabin not hot when getting into car b/c ambient heat in climate and solar panels get hot too. cool interioir prevents need to turn on AirConditioning which hurts driving range, and its also a luxury to not have to wait for heat to dissipate in when cant open window in rain or to have to wait for heat to escape.
it the open end is ideally at least tough as window glass, device is also clamped to window via sunction cup so it harder to remove it from outside car by criminal breaking in. the open end of the device can be netted with durable material to prevent criminal using a fishing string hook technique to unlock door switch at the inside or door, or rain and other liquids from being dumped into the interior. this could be designed to work with areodynamics while driving too, the liquid protection part of it would be in the inside, radiation heat will automatically tend to move toward cooler outside world from inside but liquid needs gravity and a path to get inside car.
the rear end vertically flat surface maybe good enough place for this device to prevent window visibility being covered by device,, possibly preventing need to use set up such device at window even when parked at all. some be a place for netting to ventilate away heat
@Ken Kobayashi Need to distinguish between solar panels and solar cells. These are Maxeon Air panels incorporating Maxeon IBC flexible solar cells (According to the linked press release). Since Aptera is panelizing individual cells in their body panels, it is the cells that may or may not be the same. The reference was uttered more than 6 months ago and this looks like a new press release so only the folks at Aptera could say if the same cells are being used.
hope they will allow solar charge while plugin charging, so one can charge efficiently after cars parked outside while at work everyday and toward going home, and solar charge while driving, b/c it would make a big difference.
I think I might just get BOTH the solar hatch and the plain hatch. Then I can change it when I want, and if Aptera goes the way of the Dodo (get it? a flightless bird, ha!) I could put the solar hatch on when the roof and hood solar panels are failing.
QUOTE= Those 40 miles of essentially free range are collected by over three square meters of solar panels, designed to be easily upgradable and replaceable over the car’s life. That complements the version capable of 1,000 miles from a single charge obtained via a 110-volt outlet, commonly found in every American household. “Our vehicle is unique in that most electric cars you can never really charge off a 110-volt outlet,” says Anthony. “It’s not enough power to charge a Tesla or Chevy Bolt. But with our vehicle, the same outlet that you use to charge your cell phone can charge 130 miles of range per hour.”
I recently read an Aptera reply to this matter, on Facebook (?) and they said there will be an option for solar cells on the hatch for those that want the Never Charge full potential, or no solar cells there. I am guessing there would be minimal solar cell array on the roof only to power the ambient temperature venting feature.
I am leaning towards the hatch solar cell array only because of my annual solar exposure, but I would have to understand the visibility from inside the vehicle using the video screens in lieu of conventional back and side view mirrors. I hate blind spots.
On my previously owned coupe hatchback cars, I liked a retractable cargo cover, so people could not see inside easily. Not sure that will be an options on Aptera’s huge cargo area, so an opaque solar array on the hatch provides that.
So until I can sit inside the Dev Vehicle and understand where these options fall in the $34k to 59k pricing.... “this jury is out”. I understand once they take deposits there will be an option to make changes, which seems fair. Hopefully updates with more pictures in the next month will help understand many things
I understand 25 yr minimum. I do not keep my cars that long. I was surprised their Story in the Wefunder site only mentions "over 10 years" and replaceable:
you may not keep it that long but resale value will be much higher as they hold up really well and still charge as the vehicle sits around not being used 24/7 Or you kids and grand kids can show it off some day,
Well, the heavy ones protected by glass that are used on stationary roofs and for utility solar farms last that long. The lightweight ones used on boats and RV's that are protected by softer, thinner & lighter plastics I've seen usually only have a 1 year warrantee.
The protective coating and seals against moisture and yellowing from sunlight largely determine their lifetimes. I'm impressed that a mobile, lightweight solar panel can be made with a 10 year life. I haven't seen one like that on the market.
I used to sell solar modules 15 years ago as an employee of Kyocera Solar. The warranty was good for 20-25 years with a degradation rate of 1%/year. In reality, the rate drops immediately a bit when first exposed to sunlight, then at a much slower rate than 1%/year. For example, they had 45 year old modules that were still performing at 90+% what they were when they first came off the production line. So, I say all of that to say that once constructed, any well made solar module should well outlast just about any other part on the vehicle. As to failure rates, again the % of well made failing modules is way less than failure rates on other parts of the cars electrical system, drivetrain, motor, etc. Solar PV is a very well understood phenomenon, the manufacturing technology Has only gotten better and better and less and less expensive over the 15 years since I used to sell it. I would expect the batteries to be the “long pole in the tent” as far as potential to fail and require replacement first.
I hope you are right on the PV solar array “applied” on the resin body of the Aptera, given that everything has to be kept lightweight. I too had two homes with conventional PV electric panels , two different brands, each with the same 25 year warranty. So I agree...many decades of experience on those heavy panels. This Never Charge is one of their signature systems so I trust they will do it right!
I typically keep my vehicles for ten years, so this might be a great vehicle to give to my son (engineer) to upgrade to the latest solar array and batteries in a decade or so. They claim they will be easy to replace too. We have seen how the efficiency of the PV solar panels improve every few years and trust batteries will follow same.
What will interesting on the Never Charge solar array is...the type and thickness of the glass or plastic that they may use. We know how heavy the typical 3.2mm(?) tampered glass is on “high end PV Electric home panels”. But plastic is lighter and also important to their overall engineered vehicle. They mentioned 10,000 hours testing on “whatever” the materials will be. We shall see!
Fisker and perhaps others are doing small solar array on there flatter SUV roofs. I am not sure what they plan, for what will be a low efficient set up. Those vehicles do not seem to be weight conscious
Umm... from the same place you will get all of your other replacement Aptera body parts, of course. If I did't expect the company to be around in 10 years, I wouldn't buy a car from them.
Besides, the Aptera will charge fine the old fashioned EV way without them. The solar panels are optional, so if you don't like the look, you can delete them from your order.
To find this you need to scroll down to "Our Story" and then click the button to read more at the end of that section.
I'm sure they haven't set the price yet, but what you really want to know is what it would be in 10 years, because they should last more than that long.
If Aptera doesn’t answer this right away I have found answers can sometimes be faster on their Facebook page. I have not tried the other social media pages. The old WeFunder site might have this answer in the hundreds of questions asked there over the past year but I am not sure you can search easily there
Earlier today I came across a report that asserted that the flexible PV panels made with the slightly bendable mono crystalline silicon cells suffer from alarmingly rapid performance degradation as compared to the decades that traditional rigid panels are expected to last. The reputable source suggested that poor heat dissipation provided by the encapsulating plastic was a likely contributor. In contrast, the glass sandwiching typical of rigid PV panels provides a lot better thermal conductivity.
This all matters because Aptera has stated they intent to use these sort of bendable cells because they can conform to the body panel curves. As I understand it, they will be embedding them in resin, which I read as not significantly different than plastic. Many questions come to mind at this point.
I wonder if the test rig that I gather Chris had set up for estimating solar range used flexible panels of this sort or conventional rigid panels, and if the former, did he see and assess the performance degradation?
If they are going to effectively avert this reported rapid cell degradation in their body panels, they are going to have to be very clever about it with maybe high thermal conductivity resins, heat sinks, active cooling, etc. and make darned sure it all actually works to ensure respectable cell performance over time. I will definitely be looking to hear reassurance of that as things proceed.
I am predisposed to a high degree of faith that the folks at Aptera will make sure to get this right along with everything else. This is just one more area of concern in a monumental task they have taken on. I sure don’t want to be the guy complaining about rapidly failing PV performance after I get mine. I would just as soon not have to test their warranty service over this point, or any other.
Even the old 2e used the roof solar panels to vent the Aptera
The current Aptera will have solar venting to keep the interior temp close to outside.And if I recall correctly ... exhaust out the perforated grate around the license plate
solar cover wont do enough to keep cabin not hot when getting into car b/c ambient heat in climate and solar panels get hot too. cool interioir prevents need to turn on AirConditioning which hurts driving range, and its also a luxury to not have to wait for heat to dissipate in when cant open window in rain or to have to wait for heat to escape.
#437, apprently there isnt much ventilation to for ridding heat especially when parked where no aerodynamics is there. there can be a security cover held by window partially left open, to allow ventilation. it can be similar to:this:https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200812504_200812504
it the open end is ideally at least tough as window glass, device is also clamped to window via sunction cup so it harder to remove it from outside car by criminal breaking in. the open end of the device can be netted with durable material to prevent criminal using a fishing string hook technique to unlock door switch at the inside or door, or rain and other liquids from being dumped into the interior. this could be designed to work with areodynamics while driving too, the liquid protection part of it would be in the inside, radiation heat will automatically tend to move toward cooler outside world from inside but liquid needs gravity and a path to get inside car.
the rear end vertically flat surface maybe good enough place for this device to prevent window visibility being covered by device,, possibly preventing need to use set up such device at window even when parked at all. some be a place for netting to ventilate away heat
image uploading not working, so at #471 at spreadsheet, mentions solar panel window covers for when car is parked, similar to anti solar heat reflective foils some people use to prevent solar heat from heating car when parked. such would be great factory option for much more solar charging surface area, given apparently aptera is making their own solar tech which cannot be had aftermarket, that could be in such window/windshield covers. as said somewhere in forum. windshield cover can not cover dashboard, where solar tiles are at. https://www.amazon.com/ECFAC-Retractable-Windshield-Operation-Convenient/dp/B07HF9QTJQ/ref=pd_bxgy_img_2/136-4349563-8080662?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07HF9QTJQ&pd_rd_r=62db854b-c14e-4752-9bf4-a3c9a748cc4a&pd_rd_w=uQ6QZ&pd_rd_wg=HvxCZ&pf_rd_p=bd257e40-8799-42ac-88d0-f76e0faf3886&pf_rd_r=WPFGRW43S8KP4ZRBZYDW&psc=1&refRID=WPFGRW43S8KP4ZRBZYDW
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11Of3g6RYqstbXecs7j2UHHd_b8s5MebxEs-ZwkyMiiQ/edit#gid=1847163171
hope they will allow solar charge while plugin charging, so one can charge efficiently after cars parked outside while at work everyday and toward going home, and solar charge while driving, b/c it would make a big difference.
I think I might just get BOTH the solar hatch and the plain hatch. Then I can change it when I want, and if Aptera goes the way of the Dodo (get it? a flightless bird, ha!) I could put the solar hatch on when the roof and hood solar panels are failing.
QUOTE= Those 40 miles of essentially free range are collected by over three square meters of solar panels, designed to be easily upgradable and replaceable over the car’s life. That complements the version capable of 1,000 miles from a single charge obtained via a 110-volt outlet, commonly found in every American household. “Our vehicle is unique in that most electric cars you can never really charge off a 110-volt outlet,” says Anthony. “It’s not enough power to charge a Tesla or Chevy Bolt. But with our vehicle, the same outlet that you use to charge your cell phone can charge 130 miles of range per hour.”
Latest pictures show a back window covering the hatch resulting in less solar.
I understand 25 yr minimum. I do not keep my cars that long. I was surprised their Story in the Wefunder site only mentions "over 10 years" and replaceable:
https://ucarecdn.com/6af81e8e-42af-400b-a807-8d9e29379eae/-/crop/2454x1675/292,123/-/preview/
Anyway. I too am from sunny AZ, south of you... and plan to explore the Never Charge option, which has the best potential in our solar exposures
Regarding the perk for a model... Haven’t received yet but they were getting their investor info together from Wefunder to start shipping...
Good Luck
Solar Cells last 50 years. To test it's a basic measure of the volt and put a meter on shorted to measure the amps.
PV panels have a service life of over 20 years.
I used to sell solar modules 15 years ago as an employee of Kyocera Solar. The warranty was good for 20-25 years with a degradation rate of 1%/year. In reality, the rate drops immediately a bit when first exposed to sunlight, then at a much slower rate than 1%/year. For example, they had 45 year old modules that were still performing at 90+% what they were when they first came off the production line. So, I say all of that to say that once constructed, any well made solar module should well outlast just about any other part on the vehicle. As to failure rates, again the % of well made failing modules is way less than failure rates on other parts of the cars electrical system, drivetrain, motor, etc. Solar PV is a very well understood phenomenon, the manufacturing technology Has only gotten better and better and less and less expensive over the 15 years since I used to sell it. I would expect the batteries to be the “long pole in the tent” as far as potential to fail and require replacement first.
What will interesting on the Never Charge solar array is...the type and thickness of the glass or plastic that they may use. We know how heavy the typical 3.2mm(?) tampered glass is on “high end PV Electric home panels”. But plastic is lighter and also important to their overall engineered vehicle. They mentioned 10,000 hours testing on “whatever” the materials will be. We shall see!
Fisker and perhaps others are doing small solar array on there flatter SUV roofs. I am not sure what they plan, for what will be a low efficient set up. Those vehicles do not seem to be weight conscious
They look as though they are custom formed. Where would you get them in 10 years?
I got this from https://wefunder.com/aptera/about
To find this you need to scroll down to "Our Story" and then click the button to read more at the end of that section.
I'm sure they haven't set the price yet, but what you really want to know is what it would be in 10 years, because they should last more than that long.
If Aptera doesn’t answer this right away I have found answers can sometimes be faster on their Facebook page. I have not tried the other social media pages. The old WeFunder site might have this answer in the hundreds of questions asked there over the past year but I am not sure you can search easily there