Right a waiting game as they get to “validate” all these best estimates...
So my reservation was based, back in 2020, on my thinking of some hopeful annual long range runs...
👉 I can always change “before my order”after learning what they validate. I know some AZ folks getting the first production ( Paradigm ) models too, so they will be a great resource before my order is filled.
60 kwWh for hopefully real life AZ routine driving, given hits from 1) heat and 2) some elevation changes , 3) minimum speed of 75 mph on our interstates 4 ) AWD / Off Road kit choice for our primitive roads
And I too assume the range hits are after the 500# maximum vehicle load ( passenger and cargo) allowance 🤞
I.e.,
Hits:
-60 miles for AWD
-40 miles for a mix of the rest above, and ~ once/yr...maybe a 1% range loss for every 15# for extra equipment I might carry for a cross country trek, when I carry a spare Wheel+, so.... a 500 mile range Aptera with a 60kWh pack and the bonus of solar charging is better than anything out there. An if an when I have to charge...the rate of charging will be sweet too even with the most basic 120v outlet!
I never drive over 500 mi./day on my long trips
I will try to comply with charge up to 80-90% range or whatever Aptera will advise...
But people have their own norms and travel plans and I am glad Aptera has nice choices to accommodate!
Just recently found the Question and Answer thing and it answered my questions. I should be able to use one drive wheel if I want and will be able to freewheel all the motors if I want for towing. Also might not be taking much of an efficency hit.
Ya, I heard the comment about weight vs range, & immediately thought some people would say "why not allow us the OPTION of adding cargo or not?": Increasing cargo capacity adds to the weight of the empty vehicle supporting that weight.
I have wondered if their claim of 1,000 miles at 10mi/kWh for a future AWD model is based on the assumption that by the time they're ready to produce it, battery tech will have advanced enough to make it possible. So maybe right now they're getting 10mi/kWh with the lighter pack & FWD (due to older battery tech & sub-optimized motors) so right now the AWD is truly 10% worse than their specs.
Thanks @Kerbe #12705 ! My point stands: The question shows/narrates as "What is the energy expenditure difference between the 2 motor and 3 motor versions?" & their answer is "It's about 10%...3WD uses about 10% more energy than the 2WD version".
Everything I've seen so far indicates they still expect to get 10mi/kWh in the 100kW AWD. That would mean the FWD is about 10% better than that.
A while ago they predicted it would be "a few %" (on their FAQ sheet), but they now say the current 10% difference will likely drop once the 3rd motor setup is optimized.
A single motor isn't limited to 50kW. Elaphe currently lists motors up to 110kW (147 horsepower). However even at only 67 hp, an 1800Lb 24kWh Aptera would have the same power-to-weight ratio as my Maserati-beating Fiat 500e.
@kiteboarder Have you looked at the SIZE of that motor? It's designed for a 19" rim...
I agree - they haven't said anything to contradict that their original 10mi/kWh figure came from a 100kWh AWD - but they did also just say that the vehicle will need to be reengineered to carry the 100kWh pack - so maybe that original prediction is in flux, as well.
They also mentioned during the webinar that every 15 lbs. of cargo/passenger weight would cause a 1% drop in range. I assume they meant "in addition to" the suggested max capacity of 500 lbs. Thankfully, I don't know anyone who weighs 325 lbs. so I'm safe carrying most any of my friends as passengers! 😁
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, including the video link & time where it's stated, but I'm pretty sure they indicated the 2-motor FWD was 10% BETTER than the AWD. Not just semantics: It seemed to me they meant the AWD gets their claim-to-fame 10mi/kwh, & the FWD is about 10% better.
Either way, max efficiency, would be with RWD, like a Slingshot, Spyder, BMW i3, VW id4, etc, etc, etc, which are all fine for the average zero-skill driver.
@kiteboarder What was actually said was that the AWD, 3-motor system would probably take a maximum hit of 10% in range over the FWD, 2-motor system. What that indicates, and how it relates to any previous statements, is a matter of interpretation and supposition. Here's the link - look at 36:41 through 37:41: https://youtu.be/YOmQX1EeM5I
A single motor, RWD Aptera - at 67 horsepower (50kW) - would be an entirely different animal.
I think it will be much safer (better control) using front wheel drive or all wheel drive than just rear wheel drive only. But as Mr Anthony stated about a 10% hit for rear wheel. I was wondering if you are on a long trip on the highway, if just using the rear wheel only would use less power. Then switch back to all or just front wheels when off highway. Of course this entails the use of superior driving skills that my wife repeatedly tells me only I have.
@chinkypoo1 The issue with permanent magnet motors is that they don't "free spin": If they're moving and they don't have a current running through them, they're generators. It's how regenerative braking works.
I don't believe these are permanent magnets. Too heavy. I think these are current /voltage through windings controlled. Can be way more efficent. Or at least hope they are.
@chinkypoo1 No, they are PM - which are more efficient than induction motors in EVs. Most EVs, nowadays, use PM motors. Tesla still uses induction motors in the Model S but PMMs in the RWD M3 and MY: The AWD versions of those latter two have one motor of each type.
They had mentioned they would never have rear wheel drive only. So if this is offered FWD would be the option. Yes 10% hit for AWD mentioned but they are working through all this. Even off ....there will still be the in wheel motor weight etc for some range hit.
Actually, Steve mentioned that an AWD Aptera might be able to switch between AWD, FWD or RWD, based upon whichever would be the most efficient at any given moment.
But you are correct: There has never been an entirely RWD Aptera.
@chinkypoo1 All the range & efficiency specs are based on the AWD 100kWh model. The FWD is around 10% better than that.
The lighter battery packs also make it even more efficient than the 100kWh model.
Making it extra-wide lowered the drag coefficient "over 10%" (which is what matters most for efficiency).
So they could likely match or beat the efficiency & solar-miles-per-day of the AWD 100kWh, with an EU-width FWD 250-mile Aptera. Maybe even 400 or 600-mile.
@jmtravelmail With one wheel drive (like a motorbike) or 2, 3 or 4 wheel drive, when you hit a pothole you just keep going, same as any other car when both wheels hit a rut, or a speedbump for that matter.
On that note, they might gain another 10% efficiency with RWD like a Polaris Slingshot or Can-Am Spyder. That would allow even less width while retaining efficiency, with stability retained by the newly added swaybar.
I was recently driving a Polaris Slingshot which is rear wheel drive on the single rear wheel and hit a board that was in the center of the lane with the rear wheel. I was driving about 50 mph at the time, and there was no noticeable difference over a similar impact with a standard 4-wheel car - the stability of the three wheels is much better than it is on a motorcyle.
@Raoul Desy Most Slingshots are not ridden in damp weather. You should try the same bump in the road on a wet turn. Or try looking on Slingshot forums about this problem. We have large fair weather Slingshot clubs that cruise the Pacific Coast highway around here as well as Mulholland Dr.
Right a waiting game as they get to “validate” all these best estimates...
So my reservation was based, back in 2020, on my thinking of some hopeful annual long range runs...
👉 I can always change “before my order”after learning what they validate. I know some AZ folks getting the first production ( Paradigm ) models too, so they will be a great resource before my order is filled.
60 kwWh for hopefully real life AZ routine driving, given hits from 1) heat and 2) some elevation changes , 3) minimum speed of 75 mph on our interstates 4 ) AWD / Off Road kit choice for our primitive roads
And I too assume the range hits are after the 500# maximum vehicle load ( passenger and cargo) allowance 🤞
I.e.,
Hits:
-60 miles for AWD
-40 miles for a mix of the rest above, and ~ once/yr...maybe a 1% range loss for every 15# for extra equipment I might carry for a cross country trek, when I carry a spare Wheel+, so.... a 500 mile range Aptera with a 60kWh pack and the bonus of solar charging is better than anything out there. An if an when I have to charge...the rate of charging will be sweet too even with the most basic 120v outlet!
I never drive over 500 mi./day on my long trips
I will try to comply with charge up to 80-90% range or whatever Aptera will advise...
But people have their own norms and travel plans and I am glad Aptera has nice choices to accommodate!
Just recently found the Question and Answer thing and it answered my questions. I should be able to use one drive wheel if I want and will be able to freewheel all the motors if I want for towing. Also might not be taking much of an efficency hit.
It's just a wait game now.
Designing for a 19" rear rim should be possible.
Ya, I heard the comment about weight vs range, & immediately thought some people would say "why not allow us the OPTION of adding cargo or not?": Increasing cargo capacity adds to the weight of the empty vehicle supporting that weight.
I have wondered if their claim of 1,000 miles at 10mi/kWh for a future AWD model is based on the assumption that by the time they're ready to produce it, battery tech will have advanced enough to make it possible. So maybe right now they're getting 10mi/kWh with the lighter pack & FWD (due to older battery tech & sub-optimized motors) so right now the AWD is truly 10% worse than their specs.
Thanks @Kerbe #12705 ! My point stands: The question shows/narrates as "What is the energy expenditure difference between the 2 motor and 3 motor versions?" & their answer is "It's about 10%...3WD uses about 10% more energy than the 2WD version".
Everything I've seen so far indicates they still expect to get 10mi/kWh in the 100kW AWD. That would mean the FWD is about 10% better than that.
A while ago they predicted it would be "a few %" (on their FAQ sheet), but they now say the current 10% difference will likely drop once the 3rd motor setup is optimized.
A single motor isn't limited to 50kW. Elaphe currently lists motors up to 110kW (147 horsepower). However even at only 67 hp, an 1800Lb 24kWh Aptera would have the same power-to-weight ratio as my Maserati-beating Fiat 500e.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, including the video link & time where it's stated, but I'm pretty sure they indicated the 2-motor FWD was 10% BETTER than the AWD. Not just semantics: It seemed to me they meant the AWD gets their claim-to-fame 10mi/kwh, & the FWD is about 10% better.
Either way, max efficiency, would be with RWD, like a Slingshot, Spyder, BMW i3, VW id4, etc, etc, etc, which are all fine for the average zero-skill driver.
I think it will be much safer (better control) using front wheel drive or all wheel drive than just rear wheel drive only. But as Mr Anthony stated about a 10% hit for rear wheel. I was wondering if you are on a long trip on the highway, if just using the rear wheel only would use less power. Then switch back to all or just front wheels when off highway. Of course this entails the use of superior driving skills that my wife repeatedly tells me only I have.
They had mentioned they would never have rear wheel drive only. So if this is offered FWD would be the option. Yes 10% hit for AWD mentioned but they are working through all this. Even off ....there will still be the in wheel motor weight etc for some range hit.
@chinkypoo1 All the range & efficiency specs are based on the AWD 100kWh model. The FWD is around 10% better than that.
The lighter battery packs also make it even more efficient than the 100kWh model.
Making it extra-wide lowered the drag coefficient "over 10%" (which is what matters most for efficiency).
So they could likely match or beat the efficiency & solar-miles-per-day of the AWD 100kWh, with an EU-width FWD 250-mile Aptera. Maybe even 400 or 600-mile.
@jmtravelmail With one wheel drive (like a motorbike) or 2, 3 or 4 wheel drive, when you hit a pothole you just keep going, same as any other car when both wheels hit a rut, or a speedbump for that matter.
On that note, they might gain another 10% efficiency with RWD like a Polaris Slingshot or Can-Am Spyder. That would allow even less width while retaining efficiency, with stability retained by the newly added swaybar.
What if your using the rear wheel only and hit a pothole?
@chinkypoo1