CORRECTION to my prior comment about my BEV losing lots of HV drive battery power in accessory mode: I left it in ACC for 4 hours & it "only" lost 6 miles. That's still pretty wasteful though, so I'd like to be able to sit inside with it OFF.
@anash I had to Google "NFC Rings" but that's VERY cool, although it still won't help if there's a traditional 12V battery with insufficient warning before failure.
I vote for the @thierry.grauss idea of running everything off the relatively ginormous HV drive battery with an SMPS or two, saving weight AND cost, AND improving reliability.
Without that, they need lots of advance warning of 12V failure, which is MUCH easier than with an ICE-age car.
Either that or THREE mechanical items just to allow ONE backup plan:
Yes, it would simplify a lot the design of the car, and these SMPS are cheap. It would reduce cost, take less space, reduce the weight and add reliability (if done right with high quality smps).
(from the datasheet, it accepts also DC, not only AC as input.)
The power SMPS already exists in the Aptera as it is the DCDC converter which is used to recharge the 12V battery from the 400V pack.
And you could still cut the main power pack using the emergency cut switch used by the firefighters (mandatory in all EV). The good thing is that by not using a 12V battery, if an emergency crew cutting the main power pack with the emergency switch will also disable the 12V power at the same time, thus disabling the airbags.
But maybe some regulations prevent from removing the12V battery ? I don't know.
@thierry.grauss So just with 1 or 2 smps', a BEV like Aptera could eliminate the 12V battery & it's DC-DC charger?!
That would also virtually eliminate the chance of ever losing 12V power. & THAT means there's no need for a metal key, lock, mechanical door handle, or even a little hatch to connect 12V leads or a powerbank.
Remember the aptera has solar ... if you parked it that long (many month) in a parking garage, just push it outside.
I have an electric scooter parked in Thailand. After 6 mths it was still not empty. I had parked my Mercedes in a garage for 4 mth, 12v battery not dead neither.
However if it had a USB-C port, you could just plug in a powerbank to open.
When I see the manufacturing of an Aptera it's the only car ever made where I feel like I could potentially put it together myself with an instruction manual and all the pieces. For mechanics and hobbyists it would probably be a breeze. Shouldn't have much issue spreading internationally...
@thierry.grauss wrote: "Well, last time I had problem with the 12V battery of my C-zero (aka I-miev), I was able to go in but not able to turn on the traction battery. Very strange that I still had juice, but still not able to switch a relay."
It's probably the same as my BEV, which is effectively like a gas car, where the juice is trapped in the tank when the 12V battery dies. My HV traction battery is completely disconnected from everything while parked unplugged. I believe it's for safety as well as preventing discharge. So the 12V battery is the only power source available to activate the relay (electromagnetically-activated switch) that connects the HV battery. So if you lose 12V power, HV power is trapped in the battery pack with no way out. Since the relay has to handle ALL the motor power, it's quite large, & also requires pre-charge to reduce arcing, so it takes a bit of power to activate it.
I wonder why the 12-volt "ignition" switch isn't powered by an efficient little modern energy star transformer that's permanently connected to the 400V drive battery. Maybe that would be too much constant draw even with bigger battery packs, draining your miles while you're parked unplugged.
In efficient devices, you have often 2 power supplies. A small smps optimized for low power which is only used for standby mode. It draws less than 1W. It is then used to start a more powerful smps when leaving the standby mode.
So a smps drawing less than 1W won't use a lot of power from the high voltage battery.
Mine loses 1% every few minutes, just in accessory mode with everything shut off.
@Kerbe #12705 wrote: "...most "electric door" EVs have a discretely hidden little hatch somewhere on the exterior of the body inside which are two electrical leads. If the driver is identified by the vehicle (fob, phone, etc.) attaching a 12V battery to the leads will open the driver's door."
1) I wonder how the car identifies the driver when nothing has any power at all since the 12V is dead & can't even power the contactors to connect the HV for it to supply power.
2) I wonder how to access the required 12V battery from outside the car, besides carrying a jumpstarter (taped to one's phone?) instead of keeping it in the car like I do now.
Hopefully just putting it in park & applying the parking brake (if avail.) will switch it to accessory, so I don't have to get out & then back in again, carefully avoiding the brake pedal.
However, sometimes I want to be in the car with it OFF to save power while I wait for a person or a charge.
Above someone mentioned not needing an on-off button but I disagree: Many times I open my door to get something in or out & don't want to start the car. Also many times I'm parked charging or waiting for someone in accessory mode for HVAC or the sound system.
@kiteboarder In EVs that don't have a start/stop button, getting in or out doesn't activate or deactivate the vehicle: Getting in and stepping on the brake activates the vehicle and putting the vehicle in park and then getting out deactivates it.
As to "accessory mode", THAT'S what happens when you get into the vehicle and DON'T step on the brake.
@Kerbe #12705 Yes, my Ioniq have a start/stop button, but often will warn me if I am on the accessory battery and that draining it might prevent to start the car. This is non-sense. instead it should just connect the traction battery.
It should deactivate the traction battery only if the doors are locked and not in "forced on" mode (aka camping mode). Otherwise the traction battery should always be active.
Unless I'm convinced that a 12V warning will show/sound very obviously well in advance of failure*, I will not want to be without these 3 mechanical features:
A metal key to use in a door lock, for a mechanical handle.
Then when the 12V fails I can just pop the hood & hook up a little portable jumpstarter.
*BEVs' 12V starter batteries work even when VERY worn-out, compared to a gas car, so it's much easier for the vehicle to warn you of impending failure, but mine does NOT.
Well, last time I had problem with the 12V battery of my C-zero (aka I-miev), I was able to go in but not able to turn on the traction battery. Very strange that I still had juice, but still not able to switch a relay.
My personal preference is phone as key, 0pus rfid card that I can keep in my wallet as backup. Though, to be honest, I've never used either for vehicles. Have used rfid cards for building access.
The main reason is that the only reason I carry keys is for my vehicles, and they are a pain.
"Phone-as-a-fob" does not work for me. I work at a high security federal prison and we are not allowed to bring in cell phones. Our cell phones stay in our vehicles during the work day.
Also, now that I track my trail runs and marathons with a smart watch via GPS, I don't always carry my phone while running. It's often preferable to leave it in the car.
Also also, when I am kayaking down a river I may not have my phone on me. If it is high water or Class IV whitewater or above, I may leave it in the car instead of putting it in a dry bag in the back of the boat.
Also also also, If I loose my phone (or it gets stolen) while I'm out and about, now I'm stuck. Worse, my car might get stolen as well.
Alsø alsø wik Wi nøt trei a høliday in Sweden this yër? See the løveli lakes The wøndërful telephøne system And mäni interesting furry animals.
@Ed Hansen #15799 Phone-as-key, just like phone-as-charge-card, requires the phone to be "unlocked" - so, unless you've managed to remove the security features of your phone, anyone who steals your phone will not have access to your vehicle.
Fobs, on the other hand, seem to have a range of 20-30 feet - and the signal can be intercepted and cloned.
When you go running or kayaking, you might need to hire a chauffeur to stay with your Aptera... 😄
When out in public and parked, I'm probably going to have it play a recording every 10 min saying " Attention please step back, high gauss destressing operation commencing in 10 " then have it count down from 10 to 0. That should keep a few fingerprints off.
If RFID works with the card in your wallet, I'd think the car's sensors could be placed at pocket/purse height, for activation without removing the wallet. Just tap the car with your butt/purse.
@kiteboarder@thierry.grauss I've noticed that, to use RFID cards at Blink and ChargePoint EVSE's, the card needs to be in contact with the reader. Using NFC on my phone - say, for making a payment at a supermarket terminal - the phone needs to be within an inch of the reader.
In this case, a fob is better. There are phone which are they same size as a credit card. So it should be possible to make a key fob the size of a credit card (battery included).
The problem with the phone-as-a-fob is the security problem. We can't trust the security of a smartphone. Very quickly, there is no security update anymore.
There is also the compatibility issue.
I have nothing against having an app using blutooth as a fob, but it should be a backup.
A RFID card that we can keep in the wallet is fine for me as the primary fob. It shouldn't be needed to take the card out of the wallet to open the car.
But the car should be able to detect if the key is inside the car or outside (like my current fob with my Ioniq).
We should also be able to open the boot like any other door. On some Audi, you can use you foot to open the boot when your hands are full of packets. This is nice.
@thierry.grauss And yet billions of people around the world have NO phone security issues, whatsoever...
RFID cards and readers are a very low-power system that requires them to pretty much touch: If there's nothing between the card and the reader except the leather or plastic of the wallet, itself, it MIGHT work - but you'd still need to remove your wallet from your pocket or bag and place it on the reader.
I looked "far & wide" (actually just on CarGurus.com) & found 117 used models of my current BEV currently available. It uses a (hack-proof) metal key to start, & also to unlock in order to pop the hood in the event of 12v battery failure.
If an owner loses both keys, the cost for such carelessness is $280/key.
@kiteboarder My Clarity PHEV has a metal key hidden in the fob - but a visible lock in the driver's door handle. I have seen some ICE vehicles with "keyless entry" that hide the lock behind trim, which seems rather pointless...
The Clarity also has manual releases for the fuel filler door (it's a pressurized system) and charge port cover hidden inside the vehicle.
@Kerbe #12705 Same here: Manual filler release inside, metal key hidden in fob, visible lock. This permits user-access for jumpstarting, with a non-electric door handle. Without a mechanical handle AND key, you can't even jumpstart without AAA or a locksmith!
eGolf has a covered key hole, which makes sense to me since it's only for emergencies, & the cover protects it from the elements.
@kiteboarder I explained somewhere in one of the forums that most "electric door" EVs have a discretely hidden little hatch somewhere on the exterior of the body inside which are two electrical leads. If the driver is identified by the vehicle (fob, phone, etc.) attaching a 12V battery to the leads will open the driver's door.
Actually, I would be perfectly happy with a fingerprint reader to start the car, user programmable up to 5 different fingers... but that may not be the best solution for entering the car... so maybe not
@pistonboy "phone-as-key" just means you have to have the phone in the vehicle - you don't have to do anything with it to activate the vehicle. And you're really not going to find a modern EV with a key for activation.
Here's one scenario: I hand the fob to my wife, she drives around all day, no problem. I can't part with my phone all day, right? Yes, it can be made to work with either phone, but what if the daughter borrows the car? Like most people, I would love to avoid the fob, but it still seems like the best way.
@Ken Potter RFID cards are cheaper to produce and to replace - every Model 3 comes with 2 and you can buy as many more as you want at $35/pair. A Model 3 fob is $175, not including programming.
Fobs for my Honda Clarity PHEV cost $450 and then $150 to program.
@Kerbe #12705 Yes the fobs are crazy expensive, and pretty bulky in your pocket. If the RFID card is passive (not powered) and the vehicle is not constantly transmitting, then they sound ideal. That gets my vote!
If the RFID card can be used in such a way where I don't have to take my wallet out of my pocket then that would be great. Then phone as key would be good as backup. I don't want to have to place a card somewhere specific to get going, I'd rather secure a key in an ignition switch than that, since I still need keys in general for the house. Though, I might go all the way keyless entry soon for the house too... hmmm.
The biggest thing is I don't want to have to rely on anything electronic in order to open my car doors, definitely need a backup system just in case, which may end up involving a physical key that has to be inserted anyways.
All my vehicles have keys and ignition switches. From what I have heard, I want the fob option, even if I have to pay extra for it. It can be an option I purchase when I pay for the Aptera.
@Silencz RFID cards seem to require card-to-reader contact - they can't be read through a wallet. The Model 3 key card also unlocks the driver's door when touched to the "B" pillar.
Most EVs with "electric" doors - like the Ford Mustang Mach E and the Model 3 - have a discreet little hatch that opens to reveal two electrical leads. When those leads are connected to a 12V battery - and in proximity to the fob/card/phone - the driver's door will pop open.
Since making an Aptera reservation, I decided I can't wait for the Aptera before going Electric, so I have ordered a Tesla Y, and then I hope the Aptera will be able to replace my remaining ICE auto.
Still waiting for the Tesla, but have purchased a couple of "NFC Rings" in preparation of using them to get into the Tesla. The ceramic one purchased (from AliExpress, from China, so Cheap), is about twice as wide as my Wedding band. SO, it is a bit clunky, but hoping it will easilly open the Tesla when it comes......
I would like both phone + fob (RFID card would be OK too, though second choice below fob). I currently own the Prius fob approach mentioned above and like it a lot. Phone-only is a non-starter since then you cannot readily lend out your car to other people without a convoluted process of them downloading an app, ensuring security, assuming they have a relevant smartphone too, etc. A fob or RFID card needs to be either secondary (with phone-as-key) or primary, but is needed nonetheless for vehicle access/operation to be useful across the widest range of realistic scenarios.
Depends on how the Phone-as-key would work. If it works like a Prius fob (When you get close it unlocks the door, then the phone would be good as it is one less thing I need to carry/potentially lose (The fob). Auto lock when a certain distance from the car. However, I would be happy with the fob if it works as well as those currently available in Toyotas.
Bottom line this is in the nits for me as the draw for the Aptera is its efficiency
I have only owned vehicles that had key or Fob. But I do carry the smartphone everywhere and that is my wallet too these says so….Phone as key seems nice
I guess my next smartphone wallet will be RFID lined/protected for my cards. I am not sure there are any Phone for Key theft issues
I suppose with Phone for Key you get a valet card?
I like the way Tesla Model S works with the fob that you don't have to remove from your pocket, and phone-as-key is the backup. I don't want to have to get the phone out and unlock it or swipe a card.
CORRECTION to my prior comment about my BEV losing lots of HV drive battery power in accessory mode: I left it in ACC for 4 hours & it "only" lost 6 miles. That's still pretty wasteful though, so I'd like to be able to sit inside with it OFF.
@anash I had to Google "NFC Rings" but that's VERY cool, although it still won't help if there's a traditional 12V battery with insufficient warning before failure.
I vote for the @thierry.grauss idea of running everything off the relatively ginormous HV drive battery with an SMPS or two, saving weight AND cost, AND improving reliability.
Without that, they need lots of advance warning of 12V failure, which is MUCH easier than with an ICE-age car.
Either that or THREE mechanical items just to allow ONE backup plan:
- Exterior key slot
- Mechanical door handle.
- Metal key. Plastic might work:
This seems to me like it may be something Aptera should look into.
Yes, with a SMPS like this https://www.meanwell.com/productPdf.aspx?i=673
(from the datasheet, it accepts also DC, not only AC as input.)
The power SMPS already exists in the Aptera as it is the DCDC converter which is used to recharge the 12V battery from the 400V pack.
And you could still cut the main power pack using the emergency cut switch used by the firefighters (mandatory in all EV). The good thing is that by not using a 12V battery, if an emergency crew cutting the main power pack with the emergency switch will also disable the 12V power at the same time, thus disabling the airbags.
But maybe some regulations prevent from removing the12V battery ? I don't know.
@thierry.grauss So just with 1 or 2 smps', a BEV like Aptera could eliminate the 12V battery & it's DC-DC charger?!
That would also virtually eliminate the chance of ever losing 12V power. & THAT means there's no need for a metal key, lock, mechanical door handle, or even a little hatch to connect 12V leads or a powerbank.
Remember the aptera has solar ... if you parked it that long (many month) in a parking garage, just push it outside.
I have an electric scooter parked in Thailand. After 6 mths it was still not empty. I had parked my Mercedes in a garage for 4 mth, 12v battery not dead neither.
However if it had a USB-C port, you could just plug in a powerbank to open.
@thierry.grauss wrote: "Well, last time I had problem with the 12V battery of my C-zero (aka I-miev), I was able to go in but not able to turn on the traction battery. Very strange that I still had juice, but still not able to switch a relay."
It's probably the same as my BEV, which is effectively like a gas car, where the juice is trapped in the tank when the 12V battery dies. My HV traction battery is completely disconnected from everything while parked unplugged. I believe it's for safety as well as preventing discharge. So the 12V battery is the only power source available to activate the relay (electromagnetically-activated switch) that connects the HV battery. So if you lose 12V power, HV power is trapped in the battery pack with no way out. Since the relay has to handle ALL the motor power, it's quite large, & also requires pre-charge to reduce arcing, so it takes a bit of power to activate it.
I wonder why the 12-volt "ignition" switch isn't powered by an efficient little modern energy star transformer that's permanently connected to the 400V drive battery. Maybe that would be too much constant draw even with bigger battery packs, draining your miles while you're parked unplugged.
Mine loses 1% every few minutes, just in accessory mode with everything shut off.
@Kerbe #12705 wrote: "...most "electric door" EVs have a discretely hidden little hatch somewhere on the exterior of the body inside which are two electrical leads. If the driver is identified by the vehicle (fob, phone, etc.) attaching a 12V battery to the leads will open the driver's door."
1) I wonder how the car identifies the driver when nothing has any power at all since the 12V is dead & can't even power the contactors to connect the HV for it to supply power.
2) I wonder how to access the required 12V battery from outside the car, besides carrying a jumpstarter (taped to one's phone?) instead of keeping it in the car like I do now.
Hopefully just putting it in park & applying the parking brake (if avail.) will switch it to accessory, so I don't have to get out & then back in again, carefully avoiding the brake pedal.
However, sometimes I want to be in the car with it OFF to save power while I wait for a person or a charge.
Above someone mentioned not needing an on-off button but I disagree: Many times I open my door to get something in or out & don't want to start the car. Also many times I'm parked charging or waiting for someone in accessory mode for HVAC or the sound system.
Unless I'm convinced that a 12V warning will show/sound very obviously well in advance of failure*, I will not want to be without these 3 mechanical features:
A metal key to use in a door lock, for a mechanical handle.
Then when the 12V fails I can just pop the hood & hook up a little portable jumpstarter.
*BEVs' 12V starter batteries work even when VERY worn-out, compared to a gas car, so it's much easier for the vehicle to warn you of impending failure, but mine does NOT.
My personal preference is phone as key, 0pus rfid card that I can keep in my wallet as backup. Though, to be honest, I've never used either for vehicles. Have used rfid cards for building access.
The main reason is that the only reason I carry keys is for my vehicles, and they are a pain.
"Phone-as-a-fob" does not work for me. I work at a high security federal prison and we are not allowed to bring in cell phones. Our cell phones stay in our vehicles during the work day.
Also, now that I track my trail runs and marathons with a smart watch via GPS, I don't always carry my phone while running. It's often preferable to leave it in the car.
Also also, when I am kayaking down a river I may not have my phone on me. If it is high water or Class IV whitewater or above, I may leave it in the car instead of putting it in a dry bag in the back of the boat.
Also also also, If I loose my phone (or it gets stolen) while I'm out and about, now I'm stuck. Worse, my car might get stolen as well.
Alsø alsø wik Wi nøt trei a høliday in Sweden this yër? See the løveli lakes The wøndërful telephøne system And mäni interesting furry animals.
When out in public and parked, I'm probably going to have it play a recording every 10 min saying " Attention please step back, high gauss destressing operation commencing in 10 " then have it count down from 10 to 0. That should keep a few fingerprints off.
If RFID works with the card in your wallet, I'd think the car's sensors could be placed at pocket/purse height, for activation without removing the wallet. Just tap the car with your butt/purse.
In this case, a fob is better. There are phone which are they same size as a credit card. So it should be possible to make a key fob the size of a credit card (battery included).
The problem with the phone-as-a-fob is the security problem. We can't trust the security of a smartphone. Very quickly, there is no security update anymore.
There is also the compatibility issue.
I have nothing against having an app using blutooth as a fob, but it should be a backup.
A RFID card that we can keep in the wallet is fine for me as the primary fob. It shouldn't be needed to take the card out of the wallet to open the car.
But the car should be able to detect if the key is inside the car or outside (like my current fob with my Ioniq).
We should also be able to open the boot like any other door. On some Audi, you can use you foot to open the boot when your hands are full of packets. This is nice.
I looked "far & wide" (actually just on CarGurus.com) & found 117 used models of my current BEV currently available. It uses a (hack-proof) metal key to start, & also to unlock in order to pop the hood in the event of 12v battery failure.
If an owner loses both keys, the cost for such carelessness is $280/key.
Actually, I would be perfectly happy with a fingerprint reader to start the car, user programmable up to 5 different fingers... but that may not be the best solution for entering the car... so maybe not
If I have to use a phone, I might as well use a key. It will be just as easy, plus a spare is easy to have.
Doesn’t Tesla and others have a Valet Card that would work?
Here's one scenario: I hand the fob to my wife, she drives around all day, no problem. I can't part with my phone all day, right? Yes, it can be made to work with either phone, but what if the daughter borrows the car? Like most people, I would love to avoid the fob, but it still seems like the best way.
If the RFID card can be used in such a way where I don't have to take my wallet out of my pocket then that would be great. Then phone as key would be good as backup. I don't want to have to place a card somewhere specific to get going, I'd rather secure a key in an ignition switch than that, since I still need keys in general for the house. Though, I might go all the way keyless entry soon for the house too... hmmm.
The biggest thing is I don't want to have to rely on anything electronic in order to open my car doors, definitely need a backup system just in case, which may end up involving a physical key that has to be inserted anyways.
Face “Tracking“ was listed possible in the optional Safety Pilot but lots to be finalized , so to early to discuss
I assume “ Tracking” is more of a safety feature though
I hope they make everything available and we can choose what we want.
I would like both phone + fob (RFID card would be OK too, though second choice below fob). I currently own the Prius fob approach mentioned above and like it a lot. Phone-only is a non-starter since then you cannot readily lend out your car to other people without a convoluted process of them downloading an app, ensuring security, assuming they have a relevant smartphone too, etc. A fob or RFID card needs to be either secondary (with phone-as-key) or primary, but is needed nonetheless for vehicle access/operation to be useful across the widest range of realistic scenarios.
Depends on how the Phone-as-key would work. If it works like a Prius fob (When you get close it unlocks the door, then the phone would be good as it is one less thing I need to carry/potentially lose (The fob). Auto lock when a certain distance from the car. However, I would be happy with the fob if it works as well as those currently available in Toyotas.
Bottom line this is in the nits for me as the draw for the Aptera is its efficiency
Whatever is hardest to break into or steal the vehicle.
I have only owned vehicles that had key or Fob. But I do carry the smartphone everywhere and that is my wallet too these says so….Phone as key seems nice
I guess my next smartphone wallet will be RFID lined/protected for my cards. I am not sure there are any Phone for Key theft issues
I suppose with Phone for Key you get a valet card?