Regarding side view mirrors

Hi Team. Can't side view mirrors or cameras be integrated into the rear of the front wheel housings, thus removing an aerodynamic drag penalty?

car regulations will most likely change before motorcycle/autocycle. So working with the current legal loopholes will likely be the best plan for quite a while.

These little wire mirrors will be, in the long run, nothing more than arcane auto memorabilia largely because the little buggers were only 'available on cars like the Koenigsegg, Aptera and other pioneers of video rearviews.

My experience is that I don't have to look in the review mirrors as much as I did before my SparkEV ... and it's just quick. And the Aptera is a whole new order of fast.

Check out this from a Motor Trend interview with Koenigsegg:

Instead of traditional side mirrors, the Koenigsegg Gemera is equipped with aerodynamic side-view cameras. This presents a problem in the US, as federal motor vehicle safety standards require all passenger cars to be fitted with a "driver's side outside rearview mirror."

Speaking with Motor Trend, company founder Christian von Koenigsegg is hopeful the US Department of Transportation will allow side-mounted cameras by the time the Gemera enters production in 2022. If not, Koenigsegg will alter the design to make the Gemera comply with US safety regulations.

"Our strategy for the US is if [side-mounted rearview cameras are] not legal by the time of delivery, then we will clip-on mirrors on top of the cameras," Koenigsegg said. This means the US-spec Gemeras could offer the best of both worlds to satisfy regulators by having sideview cameras and mirrors. Not only will this affect the design of the Gemera, but it could also affect the car's aerodynamics.

arbuzz.com/news/koenigsegg-gemera-could-be-compromised-in-america

I liked this comment on that article as well:

• Come on regulators, sideview mirror will eliminate blindspots, see in the dark and through think fog and snow.

We could get there but time seems short for it to happen. Still hoping for interior-mounted mirrors,if that gives us the proper coverage. With that shape of the Aptera, that seems a possibility.

Kiteboarder: Tim is right. You install the video rear views just as they are and then you get a metal clip-on mirror that attaches to the rear view camera stalk and meets the state requirements. As noted, the user can remove them or replace them or keep them for 'inspections' or slip them back on the photo stalks they now sport.

So now, you have a mirror and a video rear-view display. Use them both or remove the analogue mirror if you want. What would it take to secure the thing? A screw?

@Tim McNerney Agreed 100%! Make it smaller, not bigger!

I only meant that Aptera should supply the maximum barely-legal camera/screen equipment in order to permit barely-legal "user installation" of cameras/screens in order to legally allow unclipping the legally-required mirrors 🙄.

Someone posted that even somewhere that it's illegal to SELL a car with cameras instead of mirrors, it's legal for the BUYER to replace mirrors with cameras.

If that's true, Aptera could supply it with clip-on mirrors which the buyer mails back in exchange for a plug-in clip-on camera/screen kit.

Anybody know about the mirrors Koenigsegg is proposing for their cars? Those are supposed to snap off.

www.motor1.com/news/403432/koenigsegg-gemera-traditional-mirrors-us/

An amazing round of brainstorming everyone. This is one of the few arenas where I have seen brainstorming used effectively, rather than shut down with counter arguments. The purpose of brainstorming is to put out EVERY possible idea you can come up with, no matter how ludicrous, and throw out nothing. I have often seen a good session shut down by people who don't understand the process, and get into "Well, that can't happen..." or "That is impractical..." or "That is unethical..." That is the very purpose of a good storm, not to think outside the box with what might be possible, but to realize there is no box by bringing up everything you thought [yes, past tense] shouldn't be considered.

Each idea gives birth to several new ones, and every crazy idea that "shouldn't" be considered erases an imaginary line that couldn't be crossed that existed only as a premature cognitive commitment. In considering something as reckless as how to get around a law, for example, it sets you off down another path with a different frame of reference that shows how to think about the problem differently and releases you from being focused on thinking about a problem, freeing you instead to find solutions. So keep every suggestion coming, especially those which seem to be absurd. Everyone in this forum should be smart enough to realize that we aren't advocating for every idea that we put out there, and most know that considering the most implausible ideas inevitably leads to the best solutions.

I remember, ages ago, talking with someone who taught at Harvard Business School way back in the day. In one class he was asking his students to think of a way to sell more bread. Now there is a basic everyday staple, you either need it or you don't. It's not like you are suddenly going to make sandwiches wildly more popular or something! In fact, the expression "The greatest thing since sliced bread" suggests there ain't much room for improvement of its desirability. One business school student suggested we get everyone to go back to the old-style toasters with no timer that you had to open and flip the bread over when you guessed one side was done. Now did the professor berate the student saying "That's not practical to get people to switch" or "It is unethical to waste that much bread by causing people to burn it and throw it out."? NO! Of course not. He praised the student for getting everyone to think about the problem differently, to see things from a different angle. That is good brainstorming. Now of course reintroducing obsolete technology was not the final solution he hoped to arrive at. But, being a good or even a competent professor, he knew that the groups that pooh-pooh ideas in brainstorming sessions never arrive at worthwhile solutions. EVERYTHING is considered as a potential solution, because, for creative thinkers and leaders in business, anything can lead to one.

A lot of good discussion about mirrors. Summarizing I think States have different requirements for mirrors depending on the type of vehicle and there are a number of possible solutions proposed here, some of which are quite creative.

Of course it is impractical for engineers and production resources to design and produce Aptera variants to comply with all of the divergent requirements for seeing behind and to the side of an Aptera vehicle, nor should we expect then to do so. Also we should not encourage solutions that violate either the spirit or the letter of the enacted regulations.

The mirror dilemma is a symptom of a greater issue and that is the classification of an Aptera Vehicle. This also is inconsistent across state registration regulations. This conundrum needs to be addressed first as the basis for resolving all of the other inconsistencies and moving forward with modernizing the regulations for mirrors and other changes we would like to have incorporated in the future.

Aptera apparently has a fledgling lobbying organization. I am sure they are strategizing about what and how to lobby to support their current and future designs for an Aptera. When lobbying the "Story" needs to be consistent from teller to teller and audience to audience. This group will strategize knowing all about Aptera, current and future plans. When that group is ready they can enlist us with a powerful and consistent story we an take to our respective legislatures that will support the changes that Aptera needs to be efficient in design and production, cost effective in production, and capable of incorporating great ideas in current and future versions of Aptera vehicles.

@aileron4818 In case that's illegal & you get caught: "Sorry officer. I didn't notice that my mirrors were folded, because it's safer for me to just look at the camera screens."

Interesting Thx!

In Europe, we have Honda E with cameras. Here the law should permit them. And some Audis also have cameras in option. So the Aptera may have cameras here.

Make the mirrors flush folding and have the cameras also. Both my present vehicles have folding mirrors. I have driven off with them folded (accidentally). So can Aptera owners.

Good point! With Aptera's status as a motorcycle, the vast majority of which have no vehicle "inside" at all, it seems unlikely that any existing law would require mirrors "outside" the vehicle.

Or how about a mirror that just CLIPS onto the existing arm for the camera? Then, when I am in a state that does not require mirrors, I can just pull them off. What I remember from driver training decades ago in the state where I learned is that the ONLY requirement was that your car have A mirror that allows you to see behind. One. That's it.

"Every motor vehicle, motorcycle, and trackless trolley shall be equipped with a mirror so located as to reflect to the operator a view of the highway to the rear of such vehicle, motorcycle, or trackless trolley." — Ohio

So if it isn't required... why have one? Looking at the quote above, you can see how outdated it is by one of the terms used!

Also, looking in another state, there is NOTHING that requires the mirrors to be on the OUTSIDE of the car there:

"Every motor vehicle shall be equipped with at least one mirror so placed and adjusted as to afford the operator a clear, reflected view of the highway to the rear and left side of the vehicle." — Massachusetts

Now if there are laws that require the mirrors to be mounted outside the vehicles, you don't have to push legislation to no longer require mirrors, the states may be more amenable to modifying the law so that (in certain cases?) the mirrors can be mounted inside.

Even California law does not specify that they go outside:

"Every motor vehicle subject to registration in this state, except a motorcycle, shall be equipped with not less than two such mirrors, including one affixed to the left-hand side."

Do the laws say anywhere that the mirrors have to be mounted on the OUTSIDE of the vehicle? Could the mirrors be mounted just INSIDE the window? It seems that with the shape of the Aptera, having the side mirrors on the inside would give you just as much rear view as one mounted on the outside of other vehicles?

Cameras in the Wheel Covers, rather than mounted on doors?

Aptera indicated they're working on the mirror issues, to make it technically legal in all states, even if this means a vestigial mirror that's relatively useless, but necessary for legality & unnecessary for vision due to the camera screens.

I wonder if an unobstructed middle rearview mirror plus side mirrors located inside the cabin would give an "unobstructed view"? The side mirrors just need to cover the area obstructed by the rear pillars.

A lot of Jeeps in Colorado drive with their doors off which also removes the side mirrors. Jeep forums think that is OK, as long as there is nothing in the cargo area obscuring the middle rearview mirror. But a Jeep has a much less obstructed rear view with the doors, roof, and rear windows removed compared to the Aptera. So the non-solar hatch version might be OK with just a center rearview mirror, especially with side cameras to help out. The solar hatch version (or someone with the cargo area full) definitely needs exterior mirrors on both sides in Colorado. Looks like we need to change some laws....

Colorado requires "Every motor vehicle shall be equipped with a mirror or mirrors so located and so constructed as to reflect to the driver a free and unobstructed view of the highway for a distance of at least two hundred feet to the rear of such vehicle." Motorcycles are considered motor vehicles, but for motorcycles, a single handlebar mirror gives an unobstructed view behind. But for Aptera, the rear pillars mean a single middle rearview mirror cannot give an unobstructed view. For cars, this is usually satisfied by a left side mirror and a middle rearview mirror. It goes on to say that "Whenever any motor vehicle is not equipped with a rear window and rear side windows....such vehicle shall be equipped with an exterior mirror on each side." So the solar hatch option would definitely require two side mirrors. You also need 2 side mirrors if cargo obscures the view through the hatch. The Aptera also does not have the required "rear side windows", so all models might need side mirrors on both sides in Colorado. I noticed that the Aptera 2e did have small rear side windows, so that version might not have needed a right side mirror.

This is a good read, although it's 3 years old... https://www.ncsl.org/research/transportation/transportation-review-autocycles.aspx

I read that LED headlights were initially illegal, but that lobbying for them as energy-saving got the law changed. If true, that might be a good precedent to follow for energy-saving mirror deletion.

I think a more rational plan and looking to the future that some of we volunteers get together and work on lobbying the State legislators to get the permissions needed. A lot of this work has already done, so if we continue following this path, we could be there by the time shipment starts. The new Federal administration is also much more friendly to EVs and the Republicans are usually for reduced regulation, so this could be a win/win at the federal level as well.

If needed to be technically legal in all areas, Aptera should only add a tiny optical side-view mirror(s). Preferably the very minimum size to just barely qualify legally, AND easily removable* leaving no evidence, like the hidden rack mounts on some car roofs.

The center rearview LOOKS like a mirror, when you point it out to a cop to try avoiding a ticket for it. Or maybe they could include an actual center rearview mirror that clips over the screen like a visor-clip vanity mirror.

* for different states' rules, & for if/when their laws change.

Each state sets its own rules but due to lobbying efforts by other three wheel manufacturers, I think Maine (helmets) and New York ( MC license) may be the remaining states with issues. I am not sure about Alaska, either.

The video mirrors I put together were pretty basic - the cameras were wider view than needed, and they were not very high resolution. They worked very well in many light situations, and they were better than optical mirrors in the rain, and at dusk. You don't get blinded by headlights, or sun. Their only lack was in very dark situations, and when they happened to get direct sunlight in the lens. I had no blind spots - this is wonderful. Depth perception was something you had to learn - and if you saw something in the monitor, you then turned your head to see it. I had both 7" monitors tight together right in front of me (the instrument cluster was in the center of the ash on the xA) and so I only had to look in one place to everything behind the car. I put a small convex optical mirror in tight to the side window for when the car was off. Here's a blog post from way back when they were relatively new:

http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/2010/09/eyes-forward-video-mirrors-on-my-xa.html

https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/scion-xa-aero-mods-2969-22.html#post122825

This post shows the better set of monitors and the optical mirror I mentioned:

https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/scion-xa-aero-mods-2969-38.html#post242809

Another advantage of video mirrors is they don't need adjusting between different drivers.

Neil, thanks for sharing. I never had video side view mirrors. How was the video mirrors visibility in various lighting conditions?

Also from an understanding of safety, in the follow situation how does a video side view mirror work as it has to be powered to provide a view.

You park your car and power off (and I imagine the electronic video mirror turn off)

You want to immediately to open mydoor, to exit from the side that may have vehicles passing by. Or maybe You exit several minutes after powering off the car.

1

Would the mirrors stay powered on/useable for a few minutes, I.e. timed like an interior vehicle light?

2

Would you have an option, after powering off the vehicles for several minutes.... to then momentarily power on the mirrors to check that it is safe to open the door into the traffic?

I would love it if the new Aptera had side video mirrors. They would reduce the frontal area by almost a square foot, and also lower the Cd by have almost no interference with the flow of air. I drove with homebrew video mirrors on my Scion xA, for over 5 years. They worked very well, and they definitely improved the efficiency of the car. I had no blind spots. If we have any hopes to having autonomous cars - then it is crazy that we don't already have simple side video mirrors on production cars.