A future with air suspension

If you have listened to Steve Fambro talk about the engineering philosophy behind Aptera I have no doubt that the Aptera design will be as simplified as possable.

Another idea before its time. Aptera should focus on implementing the simplest design, easiest and cheapest to maintain (Remember this is a SELF REPAIR concept) with the highest reliability, lowest cost for the first production vehicle. This idea like many others on the forum can be considered for features of a follow on Aptera and judged on its merits with regard to engineering and marketing tradeoffs. Only a few "Ideas" can be incorporated into enhancements for the next version. they should be the ones with the most merit for the largest portion of the market or potential market.

Others on this thread have made the same observations.

My Grand Cherokee Overland has an air suspension mostly for increasing off road clearance but has a sport mode that gives a better aero profile on the highway. Maybe the suspension folks could keep this in mind to enhance the ride.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f_ZBIJsyx8 one day maybe suspension wear can be fixed by just heating it in the kitchen oven? maybe for other spring loaded type device in manual seat position adjustment device or some sort of physicals switch

The suspension design does not currently have a sway bar. Someone mentioned on the forums that they might have to add one for European deliveries, however.

I think I understand what you are going after, but keep in mind, the stiffness is much more correlated to the dampers (shocks), not the air pressure. a vehicle of this size will have limited space for a larger air springs diameter, which is what would be needed to have a stiffer feel using air pressure. Active damping would be what you are going for, and not difficult to employ, especially on a three wheeled vehicle such as Aptera. since there will be a sway bar on this vehicle, an slightly upgraded sway bar size would make a big difference on this light weight vehicle with such a low center of gravity. Given that , I’ve never tested three wheel vehicle suspensions, so I may be missing something.

Alternate idea: have 3 airbags: one at each suspension member. In normal, forward motion, all 3 airbags are linked, such that if one wheel must deflect upwards over a large bump, or down a pothole, pressure is transmitted to the others, making for a soft, compliant ride. But when an accelerometer (aka: cheap, android phone) senses transient inertial acceleration moments from cornering, 3 electrically actuated valves shut, thus each wheel is independently active (stiffer for a given psi). I'm just dreaming here: this would have to be modeled and validated by a suspension expert, which I am not.

Active suspension would be best utilized through electronic damping control, not through increasing air pressure in the air springs. Electronic damping control has been utilized for quite some time now, and could easily be integrated into the Aptera, with almost zero downside, but with lots of benefits. The 1985 Nissan 300ZX I once owned even had electronic damping adjustment, but it was not active.

to function at least as well as an anti-role bar

I wasn't thinking of active suspension. But if active suspension was the design goal what would the required response time be?

Raising and lowering the body of the Aptera is the goal of all this. Air Suspension is one possible solution to adjustable suspension height. Electric motors driving screw adjustments is another that might work just as well. How fast does the suspension height need to change anyhow? Is 10 seconds fast enough?

That is straight line run, and due to light weight, AWD & traction control, but if the want to pass the moose test at higher speeds, the better tires and active suspension will help a lot. it may even be quicker in the 0 to 60 with the better traction.

Thats funny I have never seen 0-60 in 3.5 seconds with poor traction.

It is well known that low rolling tires have poor traction. When I replaced the low rolling resistance tires on my Volt with Tiger Paw tires, the handling greatly improved, much less tire slipping and squealing, also a lot fewer tire problems while loosing about 15% in range.

Maybe we should ask for a sport package with the better handling and tires with better traction. Yes, it would decrease efficiency, but be more fun to drive and safer at the same time. It will still be much more efficient and cost less than1/2 as much as any comparable vehicle.

being able to lower suspension can also make a big difference in handling turns fast which could pay off at some level for being able to conserve mechanical movement off of higher speeds to gliding slowly to lower speed like off road exit etc, as opposed to less efficient and battery lifetime degrading practice of electronic regenerative braking, and suspension lift after lowering can be done via energy from regenerative suspension and even by hand/legs with pedals/arm lever: https://www.aptera.us/forum/aptera-design-discussion/steering-wheel-alternative-and-pedals

lowering suspension can also allow moving heavier loads in and on car or from trailer for relatively unusual circumstances https://www.aptera.us/forum/main/comment/600c972016ff89004ad12839

this lowering suspension for better handling and perceived speed can also be a big appeal to the affordable sports car market, which can help case for buying 2 seater by a lot https://www.aptera.us/forum/main/comment/60518b712a760d002b7960ea

under RELATIVE EXCELENCE IN EITHER SPORTINESS OR SOFTNESS: https://www.aptera.us/forum/aptera-design-discussion/marketing-ideas

at least before passenger trailer concept under "TRAILER" isnt yet a thing. as well as the rental conept.

Talk to Robert Riley. He's very knowledgeable about 3 wheelers, suspension setups, and chassis design for best stability. Plus, he's a really nice guy. See his page here: https://protected.hostcentric.com/rqriley/3-wheel.htm

He designed the XR3 3wheel vehicle around airbag suspension.

I too think airbags are the way to go for a 3 wheeled vehicle because they are more compact, can be easily adjusted for variable loads to maintain constant ride height (maintains suspension geometry near ideal), and also adjusted by speeds (forward velocity for aerodynamics benefits; OR for variable cornering control.) Plus they just ride really nice (my current SUV has 4 corner airbag suspension, and I don't want to own another vehicle without air suspension. It's that good.

with the mechanical crank like the one in the black and white picture of the crank in this thread, the suspension can be lifted for more suspension travel and a locking mechanism can lock the suspension spring at a lower location to allow a more full use of suspensions length for NVH supression. the lock is at a higher level up the spring to decrease suspension suppression and travel levels for better aerodynamics, handling around corners(b/c aptera may be comparable with a mx5 miata and even better in some ways https://www.aptera.us/forum/main/comment/60518b712a760d002b7960ea ) and increase for better ride comfort, off roading etc. the suspension can be like x shaped crossing each other at frontal area when suspension is lowered, and they come out for when at maximum height:

mechanical manual spring stiffening/softening on the suspension module is also something helpful for handling vs comfort etc, if i remember right ariel atom/nomad and lexus lc500 and volvo polestar hybrid has such systems, and this adjusting suspension can be made easy and quick for non technical people by gear and chains/belt connecting to mechanical knobs that can be rotated even from the cabin (not concept of modular knobs that works through screen i talked about before). such knobs can also be like roll up window devices from the 1980s to allow arms to move the adjustments if using fingers is too difficult. a guide for non car people can exist in the screen , and there knobs can be covered and the cover lid can be taken off to change setting, to prevent accidentally changing setting in middle of driving which can cause accidents.

A quick glance at the AKTV8 web page looks like they would be another good specializing company for Aptera to partner with for an advanced air suspension option that could be implemented quickly with their help.

One option I would like to see is to be able to set it to rise to maximum height when parked, to ease getting in an out for us older folks.

air suspension could also allow different wheel sizes which could allow more torque or more range depending on tire choice and allow more compact spare tire etc, especially for future versions of aptera

You have the right idea Rex. I was going for the off road upgrade which may have air suspension. If not, I'll be watching to see how your air suspension works out.

Sandy Monroe has said in a recent interview that Aptera will use dynamic air suspension to enhance stability. I’m concerned that the slippery slope of gadgets will make the Aptera unaffordable by the general public. I like free choice, not centralized mandates. Options not force. I understand needs vs wants.

How about a low tech solution - a simple mechanical crank mechanism.

Complexity = increased cost & maintenance. Any good engineer knows that the best parts are the ones not needed and thus not used. Keep it simple, robust, affordable & easily maintained.

suspension that harnesses electricity through shock absorbance, and energy can be directed to make artificial body weight distribution around g forces and ride quality enhancement can be switched on too, and active suspension is useful to minimize crash damage, adjust suspension stifness and/or travel for comfort or sportier handling(ex. carrying speed around turns instead of losing energy to less efficient regenerative braking), lowering/heightening suspension to make getting people and objects onto the roof and/or into the car. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkqGubp90ZY

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1092944_audi-unveils-suspension-energy-regeneration-technology https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306261919318677

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT9bY7pCBNg

mclaren 720s has this anti roll suspension that can allow narrower width of teh car, aptera is too wide for many places. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkwL8lBo2e0&feature=emb_title . mclaren has eletronic suspension behavior toggability, aptera can skip that and thus skip much of teh electronics in the system, the valve pressure toggles can be replaced with mechanical connection to steering wheel position by chain and gear action rather than shaft and gears for more flexibility of how the system takes up space.ideas here: https://www.aptera.us/forum/aptera-design-discussion/overall-structure-perportion-alternatives

also maybe allow front wheels to fold forward for lows speed/parking situations, where teh need for narrow car is most relent and there is less need for more balance against g-forces.

also this emerging wheel tech that affects suspension https://hackaday.com/2019/07/25/airless-tire-for-your-car-michelin-says-2024-heres-what-theyre-up-against/

also maybe it pays to have variable diameter tire by having a air suspension based on the hub on teh tire, it pushes the edge of the tire up for larger diameter (more torque) and down for smaller (less energy cost ex. less cost to fill up on gas). this can also be active air suspension (less bumpy ride, can go faster at turns if ur driving fast, can save energy when slowing onto a slower road by transferring more momentum to foward movement around turns instead of losing it as heat and electrical ineffincy at the regenerative braking system or losing it as heat at friction brakes and brake pad erosion) and a form of making energy from movement of suspension (less energy costs)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f_ZBIJsyx8

Air compressor and associated stuff is more things to wear out, fail and use up energy. For the "advantages" it offers, I'd rather do without.

Active air suspension would require an air compressor. More parts and weight. Coil springs now in design seems best for a super efficient vehicle.

I want the system Audi has demonstrated, radar maps the roads contours and the suspension is actively managed to absorb bumps 100%, imperceptible to the occupant. Then small diameter, narrow, high pressure wheels become less of a compromise. The challenge is doing this efficiently.

Being able to raise the vehicle a few inches at slow speeds over rough terrain (like potholed city streets) would be a great feature.

The rear suspension doesn't look like you could put a shock / spring unit that large a diameter on it - it is in tension. If you look closely, there are 2 rods on either side of the unit. For the front suspension, it is a little harder to see what the clearances are.