Elon Musk has tweeted that Tesla will open the Supercharging network to other EV manufacturers later this year. If you are on the fence about purchasing an Aptera does this influence your decision?
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Thanks to all you experienced people for the education. I will seldom need to charge anywhere but free sun or at home, but I always want to know more and how.
@BMW Bloch & @zajethesage In the US nearly all AC chargers peak at 6.6kW, so the US avg. daily drive takes about 36 min to fully recharge an Aptera.
There are usually unenforced 2-hour limits &/or "vacate when done" signs. Many people rudely ignore them so I often unplug FULL cars to plug in for a half hour (10 minutes for Aptera). When the cord won't reach an empty spot I sit in the car double-parked & use the time to catch up on my phone with news, email & forums like this one.
@OceanDragonThe only way for a slow charging surcharge to be fair is if it's not based on kW, but rather on the TIME required to add miles. Trying to make Aptera take even less time than it already does on DC would likely delay production, and almost certainly add weight & cost.
Based on your numbers AND your link:
1) Aptera & Tesla take about the SAME time IF they're at a 250kW Supercharger AND it actually PROVIDES the full 250kW.
2) Any place or time when the real-world current is below that, even a Tesla with 1,000kW capacity would take longer than the 50kW Aptera.
To ME, fixed idle fees & charging etiquette seem to apply pretty equally to both vehicles.
As for the "Jerry can", Aptera could carry the "Jerry battery" only when it might be needed, just like an actual Jerry can. i3rex is my favorite plug-in gas car of all time, but it DOES make you always carry the engine, & also maintain it.
I really do not understand how this works. I thought most of the vehicles I see charging (park & rides) were plugged in and left there all day even thou they may charge up in an hour or two. They still occupy the space, even if the charge is cycled off. Is this not so?
Aptera's current 50kW DC spec recharges 200 miles in about 24 minutes.
Tesla at an average Supercharger* recharges 200 mi in about 42 minutes.
In order to be fair, any surcharge for slow charging must be based on miles added per minute, not kW. Increasing Aptera's DC speed even more would likely add cost, weight & production delay.
As for a "Jerry can", Aptera's extreme efficiency lends itself to that. IF it could be hooked up, a battery the same weight as a 5-gal Jerry can would add 30 miles of range.
*They only average 72kW in town, per the bottom of the first page at This Tesla link
Hi Kite. You are correct in that the Tesla might charge a 200 mile range in about 42 minutes. But since that time the V3 version of the DC FastCharger has come out 2 years ago. With its 250 kW rate the Model 3 can charge the same 200 mile range in about 23 minutes.
Many of the Tesla SuperChargers charge what is called "idle fees" at the rate of $1.00 per minute. This is so one does not keep their fully charged Tesla connected to the charger so that others cannot access the charger. Fast charging rates and time penalties keep the charging system fair to all, and promotes quick turnover of the charger. As a Tesla owner, I would certainly not like to see any slow charging cars on the system. There exists a verbal set of rules called "charging etiquette"
As for the "Jerry can", my BMW i3 REx can use the 4.8 gallons to get an additional 156 miles out of that with no waiting at all through the generator. It will keep going as long as you provide fuel; there is no downtime, since the charging occurs while one is driving.
Look up a guy called Tom Moloughney who does a nice breakdown of Tesla V3 DC fast charging. He is considered an expert of EV charging....all EV's. I'm sure he'll do an Aptera review one day.
Tesla has stated that they are going to charge much more for slow charging cars at their Superchargers, hopefully Aptera gets the message that they need to put in a decent charger instead of the 50KW charger that they are planning. Tesla is absolutely right to have this policy, it's about maximizing throughput. You can't have 50KW cars hogging a Supercharger for an hour, cars need to be able to charge in 15-20 minutes so that someone else can charge their car.
Agree. Not sure what the Aptera Crew has in mind, but they should try to get as close to the specification that Tesla requires. Might be cost prohibitive to do so however, as they are leaning hard on the 'never charge' mantra.
@Joshua Rosen I think it's more a case of trying to dissipate the heat from faster charging rather than the cost of installing a faster charging setup.
Slightly misleading. They were not stuck, this was a Tesla Club event where they had a parade on Canada Day to celebrate the opening of the supercharger. Either way, all I see is $$$ for my Tesla investment.
@Joshua Rosen Not everyone has as easy access to Superchargers as to CCS, & yes it's more cumbersome, but still much less so than CHAdeMO! Apparently though the latter is the only one designed for V2L, although that feature of it has been made unavailable in North America 🙄
Aptera teased a Tesla plug and I'd certainly pay several thousand dollars more if they used a Tesla connector and had access to the Supercharger network. The CCS plug is a gruesome kludge, that's what happens when you design by committee.
You were clear that you were at EVGo charging at the same current & fee as an Aptera. But by your "time is money" comment, since Aptera is 250% as efficient, it would have cost about 40% less & taken about 40% as long, even though it has the SLOWEST onboard DC charger.
Next, "If one was to go to Electrify America's 150 kW DC fast chargers, one is billed $0.43/kW.". Assuming you mean kWh, in the same time as 125kW would take in any other EV, Aptera is also done & costs 40% less to recharge the same number of miles for you to get to your destination charger, again with the SLOWEST onboard DC charger.
My point is that on the time & money charging fronts, Aptera has no need for anything faster in order to equal the time of a 125kW DC car, & beat the cost, or at least match it (if the charge is per hour on 125kW).
@OceanDragon, if you mean $0.43/kW-HOUR at the Electrify America, faster DC charging would only alter the time, not the cost. Even when charged per hour, Aptera has the advantage of charging as fast as any 125kW EV, even though it's only drawing 50kW.
@Rcnesneg 50kW DC is the current spec for Aptera's onboard capacity. Plugging into a charger that's 125kW, 300kW (upcoming Superchargers) or 350kW (current Electrify America max.) is fine, but will be limited to Aptera's 50kW maximum.
@David Marlow, 10 cents per mile is way more than I ever pay 😉: The free standard wall outlet in my apartment's garage recharges my entire commute overnight, & there are at least 20 free L2s right on my normal 17-mile one-way drive. At those I usually don't even have time to catch up with news/forums/correspondence on my phone while I'm waiting, & Aptera takes even less time than that!
Hi Kite. Maybe I wasn't clear, I wasn't at an Electrify America. I used a DC fast charger in Santa Barbara which calculates the charge by the minute. It took me 11 minutes to get enough charge to get home with some to spare. We're going through a mild heat spell so I had the air conditioning blasting. With gas so high I didn't want to run the REx generator. Everybody has a different driving style and needs. Glad to see people sharing that spectrum here on the forum.
@kiteboarder DC charging bypasses a vehicle's on-board charger - which is actually an AC-to-DC converter. Charging wattage and speed is software-regulated, established during the "digital handshake" between the DC charger and the vehicle when the two are connected.
My current experience with my 2011 Volt is that the cost for electricity is generally less than 1/2 the cost for gas to go the same distance. The Aptera should go at least twice as far per KW as my Volt. Right now my Volt costs me about 10 cents per mile for gas, unless I was desperate I would not pay more than that to charge.
Sense the fastest charging speed on my Volt is 10 miles/hour some charging stations that are priced by time, result in excessive cost, so I avoid them. Now the Aptera can charge much faster and is twice as efficient, the timed chargers might not be such a bad deal. So I would still use the 10 cents per mile as an absolute limit as to what I would pay to charge.
I think that the situation would depend upon what state you live in, and how much one is being billed for electricity. Here is California, gas is almost $5/gallon. And if that was compared to free electricity from the roof solar production, that would be quite a differential. I just charged today and payed $0.30/min at a fast EVGo DC charger while on the road at the slower 50kW rate. If one was to go to Electrify America's 150 kW DC fast chargers, one is billed $0.43/kW. So it pays to have the vehicle equipped with the fasted DC charging capabilities to avoid long charging times. Time is money.
@OceanDragon Exactly. The rate where I live is 0.09/kWh for electricity. The true viable option for my area is to have solar fill up an EV. Although is will be cheap as dirt to fill up, and still save me $$$, it always makes more sense to have an array capable of topping your EV off.
I would like the option of using the Tesla charging system to complement the use of CCS system. But there will need to be a formal agreement with Aptera. Any car that uses a Tesla DC Supercharger will need to be coded to use it. Unlike any CCS/Chademo chargers like those from Electrify America, EVGo, Greenlots, etc which have a credit card/membership card reader and interaction visual screen; the Tesla chargers are designed to 'read' the car instead of a credit card or membership card. Billing is then done directly through the Tesla network with the car acting as the membership card. This article is meant more for Europe where Tesla uses the same 'charging' connector as all other EV's. They have standardized the CCS (SAE J1772 Combo) plug. Only in the US (and possibly a few other countries) does Tesla use its proprietary slim charger plug. So the dilemma would be any participating car manufacturer would need to put in the additional Tesla connector to use the system. Sure there are some adapters to use level 1 and 2 Tesla chargers to CCS but the reason it cannot be used on the DC input is that non Tesla cars lack the direct coding that will switch on the Tesla Supercharger. Hope this helps explain the article.
You hit on exactly the point I was about to make: This may be just in the EU where the charger plugs are standardized. That's what I recall hearing anyway.
I only use public chargers maybe a dozen times a year with my current EV. Expect even less with my Aptera so the potential add of the Supercharger network access sounds great but carries little influence for me.
It helps for sure. The ability to use the most robust and available charging network in the country/world is definitely a huge bonus to an already highly efficient and unique vehicle.
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Unknown member
Jul 21, 2021
I doesn't effect my decision. I'm still getting one.It's certainly a nice perk if we are able to use the Tesla network on road trips. Can't imagine you would need to be at the tesla supercharger very long.
@Raj Giandeep I think it increases the use car for Aptera. With long distance traveling solar charging is less useful. We will need charging stations. This will make long distance travel much more convenient. Im excited to watch this development.
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Jul 21, 2021
Replying to
@Dan Roberts If the use of Teslas network happens. I think a lot more interest towards Aptera would develop. I've never done a road trip in a EV. From what I've read tesla's network is king
I own a 2016 Tesla X90D (max range when new was 259 miles, now 100% is 243) with 91,000 miles. I have driven across the US from Georgia to LA, SF, Seattle, Key West, NYC, Quebec City, Banff, Calgary. Toronto, & Montreal. Canada highway 1 is completed with Tesla superchargers from Vancouver to Quebec City. I have no problems with range anxiety except I have to add 2 hours of charging per 500 miles per day. I am hoping to reduce it to 30-40 min per day with the Aptera 400 mile battery and go 600 miles per day or more. IMO Tesla has the best system currently. Tesla typically averages 8 chargers per location except major cities and California which starting to build 20 chargers or more per location. Electrify American averages 3 HPDC fast charger + 1 50kW CCS. Most Tesla locations are not fully occupied except for California. Tesla network covers all interstate highways and major cities in other states have many locations within the city. I suggest Aptera should pursue negotiating with the Tesla for using their network. Also many hotel chains (Hilton, Holiday Inn, Wyndham, etc.) have Tesla level 2 chargers in between the superchargers.
I think Aptera is a love it or leave it phenomena. The details like color are inconsequential, especially charging since it self-charges. I fell in love and got my heart broken when it went under. How many times in life do we get a second chance like this?
Thanks to all you experienced people for the education. I will seldom need to charge anywhere but free sun or at home, but I always want to know more and how.
@BMW Bloch & @zajethesage In the US nearly all AC chargers peak at 6.6kW, so the US avg. daily drive takes about 36 min to fully recharge an Aptera.
There are usually unenforced 2-hour limits &/or "vacate when done" signs. Many people rudely ignore them so I often unplug FULL cars to plug in for a half hour (10 minutes for Aptera). When the cord won't reach an empty spot I sit in the car double-parked & use the time to catch up on my phone with news, email & forums like this one.
@OceanDragon The only way for a slow charging surcharge to be fair is if it's not based on kW, but rather on the TIME required to add miles. Trying to make Aptera take even less time than it already does on DC would likely delay production, and almost certainly add weight & cost.
Based on your numbers AND your link:
1) Aptera & Tesla take about the SAME time IF they're at a 250kW Supercharger AND it actually PROVIDES the full 250kW.
2) Any place or time when the real-world current is below that, even a Tesla with 1,000kW capacity would take longer than the 50kW Aptera.
To ME, fixed idle fees & charging etiquette seem to apply pretty equally to both vehicles.
As for the "Jerry can", Aptera could carry the "Jerry battery" only when it might be needed, just like an actual Jerry can. i3rex is my favorite plug-in gas car of all time, but it DOES make you always carry the engine, & also maintain it.
I really do not understand how this works. I thought most of the vehicles I see charging (park & rides) were plugged in and left there all day even thou they may charge up in an hour or two. They still occupy the space, even if the charge is cycled off. Is this not so?
Aptera Supercharges FASTER than a Tesla:
Aptera's current 50kW DC spec recharges 200 miles in about 24 minutes.
Tesla at an average Supercharger* recharges 200 mi in about 42 minutes.
In order to be fair, any surcharge for slow charging must be based on miles added per minute, not kW. Increasing Aptera's DC speed even more would likely add cost, weight & production delay.
As for a "Jerry can", Aptera's extreme efficiency lends itself to that. IF it could be hooked up, a battery the same weight as a 5-gal Jerry can would add 30 miles of range.
*They only average 72kW in town, per the bottom of the first page at This Tesla link
Tesla has stated that they are going to charge much more for slow charging cars at their Superchargers, hopefully Aptera gets the message that they need to put in a decent charger instead of the 50KW charger that they are planning. Tesla is absolutely right to have this policy, it's about maximizing throughput. You can't have 50KW cars hogging a Supercharger for an hour, cars need to be able to charge in 15-20 minutes so that someone else can charge their car.
@Joshua Rosen Not everyone has as easy access to Superchargers as to CCS, & yes it's more cumbersome, but still much less so than CHAdeMO! Apparently though the latter is the only one designed for V2L, although that feature of it has been made unavailable in North America 🙄
Aptera teased a Tesla plug and I'd certainly pay several thousand dollars more if they used a Tesla connector and had access to the Supercharger network. The CCS plug is a gruesome kludge, that's what happens when you design by committee.
You were clear that you were at EVGo charging at the same current & fee as an Aptera. But by your "time is money" comment, since Aptera is 250% as efficient, it would have cost about 40% less & taken about 40% as long, even though it has the SLOWEST onboard DC charger.
Next, "If one was to go to Electrify America's 150 kW DC fast chargers, one is billed $0.43/kW.". Assuming you mean kWh, in the same time as 125kW would take in any other EV, Aptera is also done & costs 40% less to recharge the same number of miles for you to get to your destination charger, again with the SLOWEST onboard DC charger.
My point is that on the time & money charging fronts, Aptera has no need for anything faster in order to equal the time of a 125kW DC car, & beat the cost, or at least match it (if the charge is per hour on 125kW).
@OceanDragon, if you mean $0.43/kW-HOUR at the Electrify America, faster DC charging would only alter the time, not the cost. Even when charged per hour, Aptera has the advantage of charging as fast as any 125kW EV, even though it's only drawing 50kW.
@Rcnesneg 50kW DC is the current spec for Aptera's onboard capacity. Plugging into a charger that's 125kW, 300kW (upcoming Superchargers) or 350kW (current Electrify America max.) is fine, but will be limited to Aptera's 50kW maximum.
@David Marlow, 10 cents per mile is way more than I ever pay 😉: The free standard wall outlet in my apartment's garage recharges my entire commute overnight, & there are at least 20 free L2s right on my normal 17-mile one-way drive. At those I usually don't even have time to catch up with news/forums/correspondence on my phone while I'm waiting, & Aptera takes even less time than that!
My current experience with my 2011 Volt is that the cost for electricity is generally less than 1/2 the cost for gas to go the same distance. The Aptera should go at least twice as far per KW as my Volt. Right now my Volt costs me about 10 cents per mile for gas, unless I was desperate I would not pay more than that to charge.
Sense the fastest charging speed on my Volt is 10 miles/hour some charging stations that are priced by time, result in excessive cost, so I avoid them. Now the Aptera can charge much faster and is twice as efficient, the timed chargers might not be such a bad deal. So I would still use the 10 cents per mile as an absolute limit as to what I would pay to charge.
I would like the option of using the Tesla charging system to complement the use of CCS system. But there will need to be a formal agreement with Aptera. Any car that uses a Tesla DC Supercharger will need to be coded to use it. Unlike any CCS/Chademo chargers like those from Electrify America, EVGo, Greenlots, etc which have a credit card/membership card reader and interaction visual screen; the Tesla chargers are designed to 'read' the car instead of a credit card or membership card. Billing is then done directly through the Tesla network with the car acting as the membership card. This article is meant more for Europe where Tesla uses the same 'charging' connector as all other EV's. They have standardized the CCS (SAE J1772 Combo) plug. Only in the US (and possibly a few other countries) does Tesla use its proprietary slim charger plug. So the dilemma would be any participating car manufacturer would need to put in the additional Tesla connector to use the system. Sure there are some adapters to use level 1 and 2 Tesla chargers to CCS but the reason it cannot be used on the DC input is that non Tesla cars lack the direct coding that will switch on the Tesla Supercharger. Hope this helps explain the article.
It helps for sure. The ability to use the most robust and available charging network in the country/world is definitely a huge bonus to an already highly efficient and unique vehicle.
I doesn't effect my decision. I'm still getting one. It's certainly a nice perk if we are able to use the Tesla network on road trips. Can't imagine you would need to be at the tesla supercharger very long.
I think Aptera is a love it or leave it phenomena. The details like color are inconsequential, especially charging since it self-charges. I fell in love and got my heart broken when it went under. How many times in life do we get a second chance like this?
Does not influence my decision but I'm excited to hear about if Aptera can use the network and what the charging rate will be (50kw or...?)