Re. Charging

I've been looking on the forums today trying to find that answer. I see Len answered it below. I paste this from the Q&A spreadsheet - The vehicle is charging while driving now, it's just the charge rate is less than the rate that it's consuming, hence, it's not a perpetual motion machine, but I suppose any trailer, or anything with a solar cell on it is going to produce electricity, whether it's moving or not. So conceivably, yes, you could do that.

This is interesting, and since I drive a hybrid Gen 1 Honda Insight that gets 53 mpg on a road trip, it is not something I had considered. We need to be alert to the potential for abuse as the infrastructure begins to switch over. We will have to find new ways to support funding the road system besides fuel taxes, but we need to encourage the change to electric as quickly as possible at the same time. Financial barriers imposed to take advantage of the present shortage of charge points is not the way to do it.

@PV1 This was the crux of the issue between Hyundai/Kia and Electrify America a few months back: The Kona EV and E-Niro are both CAPABLE of charging at 75 kW, putting them in an upper price bracket, but they ACTUALLY charge at 50 kW.

@n.bruce.nelson PREACH! The average driver of the average ICE vehicle in MS pays about $38 in fuel tax each year - but hybrid drivers are charged $75 and EV drivers $150 in compensatory road tax! I wouldn't mind paying it so much if everybody paid that much - but this is a punishment tax passed by a state legislature that's owned by the oil industry.

@PV1 Yup, prolly...

@jstackeaa What we know for certain - from the Founders - is that they prefer the Tesla charging connector to all others (ie, J1772, CCS and ChaDeMo) available in North America. Using the connector doesn't, necessarily, mean that Aptera will have access to the Supercharger network. Although Tesla has changed its spec in the EU and now uses CCS as their charging standard - and has allowed SOME non-Tesla vehicles to charge at Superchargers - the details of any contract agreements are not being discussed at this time.

When Tesla made its charging standard "open source" by offering to share its patents with other vehicle manufacturers, there were layers and layers of legalities, permissions and prohibitions involved in the process. I don't know if these restrictions are still in place because - at that time - Tesla was "giving away" charging-for-life with all its vehicles. Now that Tesla charges for charging on its newer models, perhaps things have changed. I wonder if Tesla might spin-off its Supercharger system into a "brand" under the Tesla corporate umbrella...

@Kerbe #12705 Regarding „What we know for certain - from the Founders - is that they prefer the Tesla charging connector to all others (ie, J1772, CCS and ChaDeMo) available in North America.“ — would you mind pointing me directly to your source for this statement? The only evidence that I could find was pointing towards CCS as the most likely charging connector. Chris Anthony repeatedly and consistory said so, definitely in the WeFounder questions section, and I think again in the recent tech talk zoom event.

@Volker.Berlin I'd be happy to, but I cannot: I participated in a small-group Zoom conference at which it was one of the points discussed. They were unable to provide much detail (we assume due to non-disclosure agreements) but were very clear about their opinions. They were clear that, if the Tesla port was used, there would be adapters available for other connectors.

Lets not count chickens, but we know that the Aptera founders are under NDAs with several vendors and can not speak freely about potential agreements at this point. I think when they start announcing these the common skepticism found on some public forums is going to start shifting.

Here’s one of those articles:

https://electrek.co/2020/12/21/elon-musk-tesla-superchargers-being-used-low-key-other-automakers/

"Despite all this, I tell folks that Teslas are great cars to ride in, the Bolt is a great car to drive." - Sounds about right. There's a reason why we are selling our Tesla. 😁

I can tell you that our Model X absolutely will hit no regen limitations on shore power with preconditioning, since I had TeslaFi set up to do it automatically back when I was still driving into work every day. If the one you borrow doesn't, it's either a bug (not unlikely), or it only works through the app for some reason (also possible, as you said, Teslas are 'quirky').

I 100% agree on the infotainment. LG did an amazing job on it. It's a highlight feature for the car.

I also concur with your Bolt redesign... and regarding number 5, I miss the "twirdle" button as we called it on our Volt. That was a great feature. On the Spark they integrated it in the dumbest way into the turn signal so if you want to flash your brights for some reason it twirdles as well, even at 60mph (which is apparently a software bug). I don't think they can omit the noise box because of federal regulations... but at least we can unplug them!

I do fathom a lot of the Bolt's FWD traction issues come down to the very hard compound they use on the stock tires. One of the GreenCarReports writers owns one and described changing out the stock tires like this:

The new tires, Jablansky wrote, "change the entire dynamic of the Bolt—for the better. No more squealing through turns or wheel spin at traffic lights. There’s a slight reduction in range, and I’m curious how it will affect overall efficiency. But, man: what a positive difference!"

Which is essentially exactly my thoughts when I swapped out tires on our Spark, which I think were originally quite similar to the Bolt stock tires.

Also, you are right on the radar, the proximity detection in the Bolt is camera only, they did not integrate a radar. My error. And in the same vein, I didn't realize that someone got Comma.ai/OpenPilot working on it. Last I saw it wasn't on the list. Good to know!

@karl tremblay Sorry my reply led to all of this.

@PV1 I should apologize as well. My reply was ill-considered. So I am sorry for that.

@Kerbe #12705 It's a portable quick charger. It takes 208 or 240 volts AC and charges a car at 6.6 kW through its quick charge port. It was built for cars that only have 3.3 kW on-board chargers to be able to charge faster from level 2 stations or campgrounds.

It's basically a CHAdeMO or CCS quick charger, shrunken down so that you can take it with you.

@PV1 So it's converting AC to DC? Imagine the conversion losses!

@Kerbe #12705 Not much more than what happens with an on-board charger. This is simply an off-board charger.

I agree. I'm more concerned about level 2 charging than DC. Even though I will likely get the 40 kWh pack, I would still want a 6.6 kW or higher on-board charger. Being able to fully charge in 6 hours instead of 12-13 would make trips that much more doable in-between quick chargers (or when a quick charger is out of commission). I can't tell you how many hours I've spent at charging stations in my i-MiEV wishing for a 6.6 kW charger.

Honestly, with the prevalence of 40 amp L2 charging stations, going to 10 kW on-board would make opportunity charging a big battery EV worth it to me. I like the idea of ganging on-board chargers. Then, you have the option of 3.3, 6.6, 9.9, or maybe even higher kW level 2 charging. There needs to be more middle-ground options between AC and DC charging in the US.

@Randy Spencer @PV1 While I'll L2 charge at home, the only time I'd really need to L2 charge in public (with a 600 kWh pack) would be overnight at a hotel, while traveling. Most of the interstate highway routes I take have very few hotels that offer L2 and, if they do, it's one unit - usually 16A. If I need to start the next morning with a full charge, at 3.2 kW I'll need to hog that single charger for 12 hours or more. With a 6.6 kW onboard charger, that time would be halved.

@PV1 To back up my claim wrt CCS, please refer to: https://wefunder.com/aptera/ask

In his answers to those 436 questions (and counting), Chris Anthony does not commit to CCS, that's right, but he repeatedly mentions CCS as the most likely option.

@Volker.Berlin My friend found this a short time ago, for what it's worth.

At this point, I really don't care about DC charging speeds. I just want the Superchargers for their better placement and reliability.

@Volker.Berlin During one of the recent Q&A sessions with the Founders, CCS was named as the charging standard.

To respond to your other question, "Why worry about fast charging at all?": The US is a very, very large country with almost no public transportation available beyond the major urban areas. In my very rural state, the average adult drives 18,000 miles per year: I know several people whose daily commute is 200 miles. My work entails visiting schools around the state and travel to other states where there is only very limited charging infrastructure in place - so, for me, DC charging will be a necessity.

@kiteboarder But, you see, it's NOT "charging faster" - it's just capable of greater range from the charge it's receiving. If I'm traveling on a highway that has DC charging every 300 miles - or about 80% of the battery's capacity - I need to know how long it's going to take me to recharge it for the next leg of the journey. Charging speed is less relevant if you have a large battery but travel only relatively short distances.

Another thing not being considered it the efficiency of the charging method: L2 charging is more efficient than L1 charging due mainly to resistance. It's actually less expensive to charge at a higher voltage because less energy is lost during the process.

@kiteboarder This is all kind of hypothetical as we don't know the actually real-world Wh/mi of any version of the Aptera - just the engineering predictions. This "adding miles" measure is just so much "marketing speak": The actual measure we need to know is the SOC/time. If an Aptera is capable of 100 Wh/mi then, yes, adding 10 kWh of charge to the battery will result in an ideal-situation range of 100 miles.

My Clarity PHEV has a 17 kWh (13 kWh useable) battery and a 6.6 kW onboard charger. It will charge to full (13 kWh) on 110 in 12 hours, or slightly more than 1 kWh per hour of charging (2.2 hours on 220). If an Aptera can do the same on less time with a smaller-capacity charger, then we should assume that the Aptera will be getting something closer to 120 Wh/mi.

Why 120? Because most EV manufacturers lock-off 20% of the battery capacity for safety. If Aptera says 400 miles on a 40 kWh battery and 20% is hidden, then the Aptera is actually getting 400 miles on a 32 kWh battery. This would be a wonderful and amazing thing and I can't wait to learn what the Aptera can actually achieve when real-world testing begins!

@Kerbe #12705 I've been reading responses from CEO Chris Anthony over on the Wefunder site, where folks were asking him some detailed questions about mileage and range. Chris said the 10 mile/KWH estimate and 1000 mile range was based on the worse case of the heavy 100 KWH battery version. Those statements together mean they are following the current industry practice of stating the battery's usable power. So that 100KWH doesn't include the KWH safety margins built into the top & bottom of the batteries.

The smaller, lighter batteries will get even better mileage and range, although they aren't saying what those will be until they actually measure them on the final production versions.

So from all that I'd say they are being conservative about energy use. However, these are simulated EPA test cycle numbers, and real life mileage at higher than EPA test cycle speeds or with the heat or A/C on will be less. So if you plan on going down a highway at 75 mph or more with the heat or A/C blasting, you should probably derate that mileage by 25 or 30% to be safe.

The way I think about trips practically is that I'd want to plan trips to recharge onroute when down to 10% or 20% charge and charge up to 80% to keep the charging rate high. So for a car in winter on the highway, I want to start at 100%, use only 80% of the battery and can count on getting 70% of the mileage. Then recharge to 80% on the highway. So I'd use about 48 KWH of my 60KWH battery and get at least 7 miles for each KWH instead of the EPA 10 miles, so that's a distance to a charger of 600miles * 80% * 70% = 336 miles, worse case. And adding back 36 KWH on a fast charger would take me about 45 minutes - the time of a meal break. Or I could split that into 2, 25 minute stops about 150 miles apart. Or I'd take rest stops more often for bio-breaks. Most likely, I'll reach my destination first and can recharge fully overnight on an L2 charger.

(Please check my math. My coffee hasn't yet kicked in this morning.)

@Harry Parker Yup - that's what the info upon which I've been basing my thinking. And don't forget to include the average 20% capacity drop in cold weather...

"A Better Route Planner" will actually do most of that math for you - because you can set the vehicle's Wh/mi figure as well as it's L1/L2 capacity. I recommend it highly (as do several of the YouTube EV mavens).

Most of the US is still plagued by a dearth of charging opportunities/options while traveling: Were I to drive to Atlanta (a not uncommon occurrence) the closest DC charging station is 297 miles away - with the next 154 miles beyond that, in Atlanta's northeastern suburbs. If I head north through the Smokies on I-81, charging locations are few and far between and, once you pass Knoxville, TN, good luck finding motels with available L2. Happily, the "Dollywood" area (just north of Knoxville) has three L2 EVSEs and three different motels: Two are Blink network and charge by the hour and the third is free, but must be reserved when making a reservation. I realize that these are my personal concerns, but the routes are heavily travelled and this must impact EV drivers other than just me!

But here is the thing,- your range will be increasing 3 times faster at whatever charging rate you are using compared to a Tesla at the same rate.

3.2 kw charging would be about the same rate as my Gen 1 Volt, but because of the greater efficiency it adds triple the range. I would think a 6.6 kw charger would be a better choice as that seems to me near the maximum rate for the public L2 chargers I encounter.

@Jerry McIntire The founders have stated that, in North America, the Aptera will accept 110/120 V (wall receptacle) current, 210/220 V (Level 2) current and DC (CCS) current. They have not yet decided what capacity AC onboard charger to use and the numbers they've mentioned for DC charging seem to indicate they're planning to restrict it to 50 kW.

@Kerbe #12705 Thanks, I had hoped to hear that CCS would be possible.

The i-MiEV uses both wall and battery power to pre-condition the cabin. Pre-conditioning tries to match available wall power, but it will draw up to 2% charge from the battery, which it will automatically replace once the pre-condition timer runs out if the car stays plugged in. I've found that for most effective cabin warming, I run it about 5 minutes in HEAT mode, then switch to Defrost.

Aptera will likely have the same 3-level charging system all the other EVs use. It would be suicide to not include level 2 charging.

Having the ability to set a max charge percentage would be a huge bonus, too. I perpetually leave my Bolt in Hilltop Reserve, which sets "full charge" to 90%. This is designed to improve regen if the first few miles from the house are downhill, but it also increases the lifespan of the battery (actually, all 2017-2019 Bolts are under recall right now, with Chevy urging all owner to limit charge to 90% or have the car flashed to only charge to 90%. There have been a handful of battery fires related to charging to 100%).

Not only is it assuming that you'll be driving your Aptera to "empty". It is also assuming that you're going to drive it to "empty" again, the next day! This scenario is irrelevant for most practical purposes. If that's the case for your usage pattern, then you should choose a larger battery size.

In practice, charging over night is not about charging to "full". It's about charging enough miles to get through your next day (comfortably and with room to spare). If your battery is not full when you're leaving, that's a plus: Then you have room for regenerative braking, and for charging some free energy from the sun.