Will the Aptera have V2H capability? 100 kwh of power would be wasteful if it can't be used in between adventure trips. I would buy this vehicle for the battery packs alone. It's more usable kwh of storage than 7 Tesla Powerwalls at a cost of $50k (I think you can only use up to 6 Powerwalls together). I'm looking to pair this vehicle with a Wallbox Quasar bidirectional EV charger and a home solar system. The perfect adventure/road trip vehicle that doubles as the battery storage for my home solar. I know one of the questions right now is whether Aptera will opt for the CCS or CHAdeMO plugs... hoping it's the later for faster adoption of V2H.
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I would go for a 3 kW V2L option if there was one. That would let me transfer power to our other EV using the 2.4 kW granny charger if the solar overproduce in the summer or run our floor heater, waterpump and frigde in case of a power outage. Power is kind of stable where we live though, with maybe a day of downtime every other year and a few short ones (a few hours) each year. Not enough to motivate 11 kW V2H to run the entire house.
Hi everybody, FYI, I just opened a dedicated post for the V2X survey here, as most may not find it buried deep into this discussion. Have a nice one.
Nobody makes a VTG or VTH that I know for the US market..that said the ford pickup is offering 9.6 kW of power out of plugs. It will be intersting to see how they interface that with a home, you. Need automatic disconnects for the grid, a seperate emergency electrical panel r outlets on the Aptera snd some heavy duty extension coeds for those rare emergency. Obviously this would be a popular feature snd the folks at Aptera are very sharp.
On Vehicle to Home, Green car Reports published this article today on the convergence of home solar and electric cars. The article suggests that right now only the Nissan Leaf has the innate ability for H2V and V2H - at least with the system.
Where I live the utility company has net metering and pays me equal kwh-for-kwh rates for what my system can export. Except I'm forced to pay a $23/month fee because they claim I'm causing downtime during the day for their power plant, or some nonsense like that. Then on top of that it's $37/month service fee. So $60/month is what my system has to overcome before it can start generating money for me. With the low rate of .08/kw I haven't been able to receive any credit since I installed my 7.5 kw system back in February. The only way I can hope to stick it to the man, and start forcing a credit, is to increase my kw production by at least 50%. The moral of the story is the rich and powerful will always figure out a way to get their cut.
zajethesage: Utility companies are, in many ways, state-sponsored monopolies with many of the same attitude of monopolists everywhere which is more for me.
The utilities were so oriented toward profit if you didn't live in a large city, where a utility could sign up 1000+ subscribers for every square mile of grid, they weren't interested. That's why it was a big deal when the REA (Rural Electrification Administration) started making grants and low-interest loans to rural areas through membership corporations - i.e. electric Co-ops. The REA was one of FDR's efforts in the '30s.
Because when it started these electric companies like to present themselves as natural monopolies because it would not make sense to allow five or ten 'companies' to compete with five or ten grids in each square mile of a city.
This was also a time of anti-trust and a general distaste for monopolies and states felt the need to regulate these 'natural monopolies' and they've done so for going on 100 years.
Then there was 'regulatory capture' and the notion that the .0003 percent of a large utilities customers might have the wisdom to install solar panels was just an excuse to rip them off and enjoy their 'more for me' mindset. They got away with it in some states (mostly GOP controlled but I wouldn't put it past the dems if they could get away with it)... And didn't in others.
Often state legislators, many of which loooove dark money, set up the rules their contributors suggest. After all, they're only going PO less than 1 percent of their customers and every little bit helps the bottom line.
In an effort to placate the now two percent of car owners who have EVs, many electric utilities are finally 'getting it,' offering things like TOU rates and the like. I mean the little co-op I'm in has just over 100,000 customers and they're on board with the low rates for EVs. Even the giant Ga Power (part of the even bigger Southern Co.) the largest private utility in this region is tied in with Chargepoint.
My recollection is net metering in GA is more like your scheme while other states trade electrons, accounting for the difference with equal value placed on both.
It is kind of like, you pay 15 cents kwh for the juice you use so we can pay for Plant Vogel (the last nuke plant being built that will begin coming on line next year) and, because new power and amortizing the billions spent on the nuke plant, we'll pay you two cents KWH 'cause we need the profit to pay for the wholesale cost of 8 cents a KWH you'll have to pay for from the nuclear plants - seven cents of which are cost overruns. But I rant.
While my figures are admittedly BS, they approximate the dynamics of a dirty deal despite the imprecision. (Other than the state law setting up the relationship between the utilities and folks with solar installations to strongly favor the utilities, I'm not a GA Power customer.)
It will be a lot easier to engage the utility industry when 10 million of their customers own a 50+kw EV battery and threaten, with a combination of solar, wind and storage and are capable of taking their properties off the grid. But for the time being, we should be proud that the PSC's - despite being captured by the industry - have agreed to permit large scale (1+ MW) solar installations for industries and schools.
The main point is they aren't evil, they just live by the notion that more for me is the American way and until consumers can leverage their solar, wind and battery assets by electing legislators and PSC commissioners beholden to the public and not special interests, we will just have to deal with it.
So I have to tell a little story to get this understood by the public. Last year, in anticipation of getting future electric vehicles, I expanded my home photovoltaic system beyond my current needs. I was somewhat concerned that some of the tax credits would disappear and I had a large tax liability, so I went ahead. I live in San Diego county and our provider is SDG&E. People on solar can opt to only pay the bill once per year so that your summer/winter averages can have the opportunity to cancel each other out. This is called NET Metering. At the end of this 12 month period you get a bill called the True-Up bill, where charges and credits are displayed. SDG&E credits your account at the retail level for power produced, but will buy excess power you generate only at the wholesale level.
I just received my True-Up bill and it shows a credit of $590. produced but SDG&E is only paying me $39. for it. If I use their electricity they charge me $0.33 per KWH but when they pay me it is only $0.02 per KWH. Now, how this all ties in to V2G.
When I get my vehicles and am recharging them here, I will not be producing so much excess power so that is not a problem. Thing is, if the grid wants to use my vehicle batteries as part of their back-up system, then I want more, much more than the wholesale rate for this benefit to them. V2H is a different story as I would be the beneficiary of that. Sorry it is long winded, but I thought it should be told.
just saw an excellent video about v2g, it answered all of the key questions such as depleting the car battery during a crisis.
@jacobnaeb Thank you*. 1,500W 120V inverter output is at the very top of Aptera's FAQ spreadsheet.
That's definitely enough for my fridge (780W peak), microwave (1320), Vitamix blender (1380), or even my highest-load items: vacuum or L1 car charger (both 1440).
You prompted me to check my micro-car's 12V outlet & it's only 160W. However, for this thread's V2H topic it's not an issue. For example, other 500e owners have pulled 2800W continuous from its 12V terminals with an add-on pure-sine inverter to power their home in blackouts.
Sorry but I can't resist 😉: A 120V 15A outlet has worked for 5.5 years & counting, for nightly recharging of my 37-mile 500e commute with the OEM cord, so there's been no need at all to install anything else.
*Thanks for prompting me to clarify it, by voicing what many others may have felt but not replied:
@jacobnaeb wrote: @kiteboarder Seems simple, but multiply 12V * 15 A and you get 180W, which means it wouldn't provide much power to a load (think a laptop, definitely no fridge, microwave, etc.), the wires would be large diameter, and it would take 28 hours to charge a 5kWh battery. I doubt the onboard 12V outlet would provide 180W, but maybe I'm wrong there... Even a 120V 15A outlet only really provides 1,440W (80% of rated). A 120V 20A outlet worked for 6 months for charging our Tesla for my wife's commute at night, until I was able to install a 240V 50A circuit and Tesla Charger.
i just updated the first survey, V2H would be a great addition for general EV adoption especially considering the battery size and the becoming ubiquitous need to capture solar energy.
Since the Aptera is most likely going to be delayed anyway I'd like to see this added to the first production. Not sure of the effort needed for this but figure the biggest chunk is in the inverter.
Vehicle to load allows for emergency aid during extended home power outages (toasters, refrigerator, small AC unit, air fryers, small cooktops), camping, emergency EV Roadside help, power tool operation, TV and radios. This offers the highest flexibility and the smallest installation cost for the user.
Great potential here for a future enhancement to the currently designed Aptera and perhaps an Aptera addon to the current design. Even though great potential, the current design and production schedule should not be perturbated for this enhancement at this point.
We hit 30 survey responses! (July 31)
V2H for everyone! (almost). Texas aftermath...
V2L comes in second. Power for camping & tailgating is hot.
10 kW output. F-150⚡️(9.6kW) and Sono (11kW) set the standard.
If you haven't yet, fill in the survey and let your voice be heard!
Imagine Aptera comes with both CCS and Tesla bidirectional charging sockets.
You could charge your Aptera on Tesla destination and home chargers. No adapters needed. Making Tesla owners who purchase an Aptera as a 2d car very happy. Would they need Tesla supercharging for their Aptera anymore? Probably not.
And with a single CCS==Tesla cable, you could recharge any EV stranded along the road.
The Aptera app could include an SOS function for notifying nearby Aptera owners, who would reply with: - Time on site
- Maximum available charge - Price per kW.h
- Fixed rescue charge
This rescue function could be used by any EV user (using a web app for instance). Aptera would be recognized as the Good Samaritan of the roads.
And allow Aptera owners to make a few bucks, too.
"Aptera: sharing range serenity" 😁
Everyone please take a moment and complete the V2X survey.
SURVEY : What are your V2X charging needs?
Important note: I create a separate post for the survey here: What are your V2X charging needs? (survey) Please use this new post for updated results and for referring.
https://forms.gle/7CT983X9L2KCB9wY6
Thanks for answering!
If you plugged a car into itself, you could have perpetual motion if it weren't for that darn entropy issue.
Sono Motors : powering a tiny home on a modest 35 kW.h battery!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B224CytnNXo
With V2X, Aptera buyers would readily chip-out more for a larger battery.
Check out this German prototype by Sono Motors due for production in 2022: a fully solar 5-door, 5-seat hatchback for 30.000$ with 11kW V2X !
But a single-size 35 kW.h battery with a ridiculous 160 miles range ... https://sonomotors.com/en/sharing/
Wouldn't you love to see the same picture with two Apteras ???
Entirely covered in solar cells (6m²=65ft²) as a standard feature.
Sono powering Tesla 😎
All the plugs you can dream of...
Power anywhere (11kW) !
'Just emailed the following to Aptera (I live in Europe, so 240VAC standard): "Concerning V2X: I would need a 5kW/240VAC power output plug on the car in order to be able to use all my power tools when I am working on-site (I build masonry stoves and often have to lug a gen-set around). My main tool is a 3kW table saw for cutting stones, which needs a higher rating for start-up.
Then ideally the Aptera would plug into a Tesla PowerWall or dcbel™ power box for V2H back-up." 'Will let you guys know if I get a reply :o)
Those are all great IF you don't already have home storage (that you can recharge from your car with just an extension cord) AND if even in an emergency you don't want to turn off your fridge for a few minutes in order to use your microwave. When blackouts get bad enough I plan on the latter. After a while it might get a bit irritating, but I bet I'll just get used to it.
https://wallbox.com/en_us/quasar-dc-charger
My idea won't work if just having 2 plugs is a deal-breaker:
- To use the car to charge the house just plug a plain extension cord into the car's 120V outlet.
- To use the house to charge the car just use its specialty plug*, probably: Me & at least one other forum member suggested they incorporate the L1 charger onboard, with a socket on the car for an extension cord. That would still require a separate cord though.
* Tesla, CHAdeMO, etc.
Running sensitive electronics, motors, battery chargers, etc, off a PURE-sine inverter is accepted practice. If it can run off the grid, it can run off the inverter. I would avoid cheapo "modified sine" units though.
Let me try a simplified power flow "chart":
240V A.C. grid power* -> 3.3 or 6.6kW** onboard charger -> Aptera's 350V. D.C pack -> 1.5kW DC/DC converter*** -> 1.5kW inverter (120V A.C. output) -> LG battery charger -> 400V LG battery bank -> Home.
* The onboard charger can also use 120V grid power, usually at 1.4kW.
** Aptera is considering one of those two options.
*** This is what powers the car's 12V system, for lights, locks, windows, wipers, etc, also keeping the starter battery topped off.
If your LG battery bank can be charged with 120 volts A.C. grid power, then it can also be charged with 120V A.C. from the 1.5kW inverter that Aptera said "yes" to in my first post above.*
Then you can run your home as you do now, from your 9.8kWh LG, & power the LG charger from your Aptera's inverter, to keep the LG topped off.
1.5kW would give you a maximum of 36kWh/day, so you'd only need to run it for a few hours/day to keep the LG fully charged.
Let me know if that didn't make sense, or if it did make sense but you think it won't work.
*They just didn't confirm when, so you might have to get your own for $200.
I'm keeping an eye on this too, but it is not critical for me as I already have 28.8 kWh of battery backup as part of my grid tied PV system. Grid power goes off and stays off for days at a time in my neck of the woods. More likely to just feed the EV from that. Would be nice to eventually make that a two way interaction though. Especially if the EV's capacity outstrips, or even eventually replaces the current battery backup. Those 12 Outback 200REs were about $9k 6 years ago. Yet to see how long they will last.
If you have any existing home storage capacity there might be an easy work-around.
There's a bit of info on Aptera's FAQ Spreadsheet, which is searchable using Ctrl+F (for "Find") or for Mac it's cmd+F
So far I've found:
"We are looking at V2G tech but we are still in the very preliminary stages of evaluation. We may use a DC link to make things easy or have a special charger to tie things together."
When asked "Will Aptera ever offer an optional 380 Vdc to 120Vac, 60Hz, utility inverter rated at a few kW and if so, when?"
Aptera replied "Yes, likely not more than 1.5kW though."
That last one people have done themselves with a pure-sine inverter readily-available for barely over $200 on Amazon (with 4.4 stars over 300 ratings). My 500e seems to have a typically over-spec DC-DC converter, from which at least one user pulls 2.8kW. Others are using "only" 1.5kW inverters during power outages to run their fridge, heater, microwave, hotplate, TV, computer, etc... (but probably not ALL of those at once - maybe unplug fridge so it doesn't cycle on if you're watching TV while you're cooking).
I also read about a crazy-high-power car stereo competition participant who did his own tap directly into the HV drive battery.
Let's hope so. Nissan has done this in Japan. The Aptera should be a perfect vehicle for this as there can be so much battery and you can still drive out with room to spare with the rare case of using it for battery backup.