I commute on a daily basis -up to 250km / 156 miles daily- and as an inhabitant of The Netherlands ending up in a traffic jam is a very likely thing, for this reason I'd like to see the following specifications:
* radar assisted cruise control (braking and accelerating at all speeds and stop/follow in low speed stop and go traffic.
* Regen braking is adjustable in 3 or 4 settings from off to very heavy braking.
* high power single phase AC (7.4kW) for home charging and DC chargeport for emergency charging. Remember, The Netherlands is not very sunny and it can rain for long periods of time. Also, I use an AC Zappi charger (https://myenergi.com/product/zappi/) which can use 100% green energy to charge the battery, indicating you'd want to make full use of your solar panels on the house to charge the car during the daytime. When you own several BEV's you may not have the luxury of having several chargeports or have only place for one vehicle (like me) on the driveway and for this reason I'd need to move the car to charge the second BEV, in this case a Kia e-Niro.
* remote controlled vehicle heater with programmable times, akin to Sievers Parking Heater app to melt the snow and ice off the windscreen and to defrost the car on the inside. See http://www.standheizungsapp.de/ for the supplier. It is like the Webasto app but much better.
* heated and ventilated seats. Heated steering wheel.
* wheel motor in all three wheels for superb traction in slippery conditions
* audio system upgradable with a good DSP amplifier and high quality speakers to enjoy lossless Flac music
* Cupholders for thermos flasks (I drink loads of tea!)
In a nutshell: I want a warm car where I can enjoy my tea whilst listening to high quality sound.
Let me know your thoughts on these specifications.
I'll come back on these points if I forgot something and I'll edit.
cheers, Melvin
Some aircraft have successfully used inflatable rubber to break ice so it falls off.
Well, not possible to pull over when commuting 200km/day (124 miles) and never had to anyway with good winter tires. Also the radar of the Ioniq is working well with fog. As for snow building up on the nose of the car, it is fine most of the time. It is just that it is surprising the first time. At least there should be a warning in the car user manual about this.
Adaptative Cruise Control base on radar is very nice when there is fog or heavy rain as the ACC will see things that you can't.
But it will not work when it is snowing as the snow will pill up on the nose of the car (the EV is cold compared to an ICE) and suddenly you will have warning telling you that the ACC is disengaged and a little bit later that the emergency braking is disabled. It happened to me twice in 3 years on my Ioniq. This is because water is blocking the radio waves. It would be nice if the Aptera has some form of heating in front of the radar that is turned on when it detect a significant degradation of the signal.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/dfw.cbslocal.com/2021/02/11/pileup-100-cars-trucks-trapped-drivers-interstate-35w-fort-worth/amp/sounds
theres a system to add chains to tired while on the drive https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2IQNsLuikw normally u need to apply around tired when parked roadside https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsjomZ0v-7I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XNrV2gTUOM
Agreed 100%!
I meant that OTHERS might get to work on battery tech with less cold weather loss. Aptera has about 60% less need for that than any other EV.
That's not even including the fact that even when it's so cold that range is dropped by HALF, a high-end Aptera will still go further than any other current EV will in ideal conditions!
I’m sure that Aptera will choose a proven off the shelf battery system instead of wasting precious time & money waiting for some magical “future technology just a few months away”. NOW.... GO NOW! (Let the aerodynamics & lightweight do the work.)
I saw a test indicating Hyundai/Kia cars lose less % of range in winter than others. Every battery chemistry is different, & there are even variations within a single chemistry, such as electrode surface finish. Maybe the next thing they should work on for battery tech is less low temperature loss.
Currently it's -7 degrees Celcius and the range of my Kia is 321km at 76% SoC, this gives 422km full range instead of 455 km (WLTP range). And I only charge to 100% when I need to drive more than 350km on a day to conserve the batery.
Oops, I forgot the subject line, so I'll try to steer us back: I saw a vid of someone else with my car at 70mph in -15F going about 45 miles with 5 left at the end, so 50mi highway range instead of the 81mi EPA spec.
EPA specs seem pretty close. For my own EV they say 92 city & I get 100, but I'm in coastal southern California with an underground garage so I rarely need heat or even A/C
They mentioned using the EPA test cycle for EVs, which is on a dyno inside, probably at room temperature. I believe it has a significantly sub-highway average speed too. But ya, even if it's much worse than spec'ed it still much better than anything else.
The projected consumption is 70Wh / km according to Aptere themselves, but is that year-round California driving? Is this mentioned anywhere? Even if the consumption is +- 150% in the cold it's still half of any other EV.
I was already expecting much less range loss with speed for Aptera, but it also has less inertia & less rolling resistance, due to lighter weight, so air drag is almost certainly still going to be by far the biggest factor, and will still increase at low temp.
Okay, I stand corrected. So:
- High speed greatly reduces range at any temperature.
- High speed when cold reduces range even more because the air is more dense.
- Cold air temporarily reduces battery range.
- Heat pump is less efficient at low temperature.
- High speed when cold reduces range due to more need for power-robbing cabin heat!
No wonder real-world range drops so much at low temps!
It's definitely cooler inside at speed with fresh air on. Not much difference though in recirculate mode.
From line 65 of Aptera's FAQ Spreadsheet: "The Aptera will have a full climate control system capable down to -20 and up to 125 degrees Fahrenheit, and with our sandwich core composites body offering great insulation and a nice heater, it’s very comfortable driving in the winter."
So at -40 you'd probably want to pre-condition, dress warm, & bring a piping hot beverage in a vacuum bottle.
I'm curious why "city or highway" was mentioned, since speed has no effect on cabin heat, at least not by comparison to it's effect on range. Speed has a HUGE effect on range*, as does cold air, even without using heat, since batteries temporarily lose capacity at low temp. I have a phone app that shows voltage. I put it in the freezer & the voltage plummeted, then bounced right back when I warmed it back up in my pocket.
*Air resistance goes up with speed, literally exponentially (goes up by the square of speed).
I live in western part of Canada about 100 Miles from the Canada US Border and we can get temperatures in the Low -30'C and have hit -40'C/F at times.
So are there any specs available to show how adequately the Heating would be on the Aptera to keep the Cab at around 21'C or 70'F when the outside temp dips to below -30'C wile traveling at city or Highway speeds 50/90kph or 30/60mph.
Sure, but like I said, I don't need it to go 625% of my US average daily drive. Or even half that at 313%, or even half THAT at 156% like an old formerly-best-selling EV Leaf. What I do need is to be able to afford it.
Aerodynamics make much less difference for the huge proportion of us driving mostly city speeds, which includes freeways here in LA, when there isn't a pandemic.
On one hand I could say "Well it was good enough for Aptera." (another pic below)
On the other hand you could say "Ya 'was': They switched to pants & cameras."
Either way, it's plenty good enough for me.
Exactly my guess, remove the aerodynamic parts and the range will decrease as drag increases.
Fine by me! With range only halved, I can still halve the battery to 12.5kWh & do 156% of my US avg daily drive, but it will probably make even less difference for the mostly-city miles I drive, where aerodynamics are less important & weight is more important.
YA, MINIMALIST!!
But I don't mind if built-in stuff (like the motors' traction control?) is cheaper to just leave in. I would buy one if they offered a solar-free RWD 12kWh with 3.3kW L2, mirrors, "hot-rod" fenders & no rear skirt*. Based on their current offers, that MSRP should be around $17k. Lighter, faster, more aero 14" front wheels, & a 15 to fit over the 1 rear motor.
Back to the thread topic:
Aptera says it will have heated seats, steering wheel, & battery on lines 25 & 76 of their FAQ Spreadsheet:
"The battery will have a heater".
Q: "Will it have a heat pump heated seats and steering wheel?"
A: "Yes"
*
I am a minimalist and can afford to be living in relatively great weather in Central Valley CA. I would not mind buying a glider from Aptera, no drive train, no electronics, no batteries. I'd finishing the vehicle myself have a minimalist's version of the Aptera if I can.
No frills just single rear wheel drive if possible and front wheels drive if not with only about 150 miles range at very high level of performance (for a fun commute), enough for 99% of my daily driving to keep weight down further than the current spec. I'd be using my phone with a speedometer app for my speedometer, simple resistive plug in heater and either park in my garage or use a heater/extension cord and blue tooth plug to prewarm the car in the brutal CA winter (where I live it can dip down to an occasional 30s LOL).
Traction control etc...none of that is appealing to me as I have driven for decades without the need to rely on any tech to stay safely on the road.
I've built and commuted on trikes back in the mid 80s and then started to electrically assisted them. Don't get me wrong I've reserved a 600 miles version of the Aptera and probably will load it with all the options but would love to build my own from just a glider.
battery heated clothing is insulation is probably excessive... doubt insulation cant isolate body heat enough for practical cases if money is put into it, which can be practical if the consumer is convinced that such a product will last practically forever. I was thinking about clothing with variable insulation, where by default teh insulation layer is open and ventilated, but can be tightened to close ventilation holes for insulation by pull of a string or string connected to a zipper as a manual switch, etc, but there is a market for wasteful one time use chemical heat packages https://www.amazon.com/Uniheat-72-hour-Shipping-Reptiles-Tropical/dp/B07G8KBH15
such clothing can be something Aptera can help sell and with another specializng company, as options to the online order of teh car , in marketing schemes etc teslahttps://www.currentautomotive.com/model-y-is-the-first-tesla-with-a-heat-pump-heres-why-thats-a-big-deal/
I'd also vote for a tarp or car cover instead of melting. Uses no energy to keep snow/ice off. Waterproof fabrics (not coatings) & secure at mirrors + 1 rear strap under tail. There's even an umbrella type option but I think the intent is shade. I bring this up because if there's a way to combine flexible solar PV with either shade or snow protection, I'd be interested too.
Another feature for cold weather would be similar to an engine block heater but for the battery fluid. The warm battery would allow full regen & more at departure when rest of car is freezing. If this was just included in the 120V charging plug that would be fine but many of us have a J1772 so a separate 1000W 120V circuit would be best. The J1772 may fill the battery by 3AM & the 120V would keep the battery warm or warm it up for a scheduled departure.
I'd prefer to have a wifi enabled smart plug or 2 to control scheduling AND let me monitor electricity use for the car, heating the battery & any tools I use in the garage's circuit. Companies (like Siemens, Sense) are working to flag an abnormal signature for identified appliances. Diagnostics would flag a failing part before it becomes really expensive. Home based business owners would know how much electricity they use beyond just the car's.
Battery heated gloves are my preference instead of heated steering wheel. Take the heat with you! I bought Gerbing which have a fingertip that works on phone screen.
https://www.aptera.us/forum/aptera-design-discussion/owners-manual-guide-folder-in-screen-adding-more-fun-sell-ability-some-efficiency-improvements (second to last paragraph)
As a Canadian, the only thing stopping my order is the lack of winterizing...for the money, I would insist on heated seats, lol...even if I have to garage it in snow.
I don’t expect my Aptera before 2022, so 2022 Road trip!
A road trip from CA to NJ, and in my case continuing on to ME, with a bunch of new Aptera owners sounds like great fun!
Hi Len,
good idea, if you have time for this maybe you should do this. Cost is not holding you back as the Aptera will have the lowest operational cost of any available vehicle on the market.
About picking the vehicle up from the factory is a matter of €, usually a $ price from the USA will become a € price in Europe and most of the times even more. For this reason I might pick it up and end up spending the same amount as if would pick up in The Netherlands, except that I have a nice vacation included.
All the best with your plans! And I am sure your location is an important market for Aptera so your delivery options may be easier than you think . Too early to tell.
Surely taking delivery at a CA plant, getting trained there on the operation and car, while meeting the staff would be a car buying life experience!
But if you follow through on your thought....
Hey “If the ⭐️ align” this could be the beginning of considering assessing a cross country Aptera Run (Caravan) 🤣
( Apteravan )
Although I am not that far from CA , living in the adjacent state and being retired ... I could consider driving my Aptera cross country to visit family back in NJ ( next to NY)
I suppose a 60 kWh model would provide an adequate range for each of the ~ 5 days to cross.
Of course feeding back the Aptervan journey story to the mother ship APTERA MOTOR CORP, while the world stays tuned!
If that works out maybe I could enhance the vehicle with more batteries for a longer range for future trips. But I have driven cross country in the US a few times.... and a 600mi/day is nice)
Just imagine an Aptera fleet ( of Apter”i” ?) crossing the US!
Some might view it an invasion
“What has landed”!
Chris Anthony (Founder) answered my questions: https://wefunder.com/comments/80806.
It is looking very promising if all this can be delivered, I'd definately buy one and might even pick it up locally to do a road trip to New York and ship it back home.
Currently I commute 154km on a daily basis and I expect this job to last for about a year, I'm an independant IT-Contractor -see my Linkedin page in my profile- and as such I have jobs accross the country (Netherlands is not very big mind you, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands for some information) and moving is not an option, for two reasons: I will need to move house every year or faster, and every time you buy a house a 6% tax is to be paid to the government on top of the buying price. As houses are comfortable around € 400.000 and above this doesn't make sense.
Enter the Aptera: low cost of operation, simplicity and good looks! And if priced at the right level exactly my kind of transportation!
Love California, I lived in Newport Beach for a while :)
That is serious commuting...Still you are right to ask for those features. I had to pull my two deposits back from the original Aptera. It was a sad day for me. I am in for a Model Y when it is available and with self driving mode. I still want an Aptera for myself. So far I've never had to commute more than 30 Km each way (I'd move just to be close enough to ride my bike to work) although I am in a neighborhood with plenty of commuters who drive your distance each day...just nuts some are doing so in full size pickup trucks. I don't have a need for old weather either. Today was a glorious 24.5°C. We have it rough in California but we can dip down to 1-2°C when it does get really cold and I'd want my Aptera prewarmed as well. Right now, I just put a little portable electric heater in and turn it on with Alexa about 15 minutes before I get into the garage to drive away.
That is a good idea, Ford still has this and it seems to work pretty good. Using hot air will melt the snow of the door windows so you can drive away and see where you're going.
Seat cooling is great, I have leather seats in the Kia e-Niro and in the summer you arrive without having a sweaty back or butt, in my opinion it adds a great deal of comfort. You can have cloth seats as that will lessen the need for seat cooling but I just like the look and feel of leather seats.
I live in New England, and I would like all of those things (though I don't think that cooled seats would be needed here). The thing I would add, is a direct heating windshield defroster - Ford and others did this all the way back in the 1970's and 1980's. They are FAR more efficient than a heated air defroster, and they are faster, too.
This is best done with a very thin (like a molecule thick, or so) layer of silver or gold in the glass - it works like a typical rear window defroster, but without the lines.
You would need to agitate the windscreen to make it flex beyond the flexing capabilities of the ice and snow, and the latter will be impossible as snow will not be bounced off the window. You'd need extremely powerful amplifiers and many subs and this, imo, is a waste of space and weight.
A heated windscreen in combination with a blower ejecting warm air to remove any dampness from the inside of the windscreen and the inside of the door windows and to pre-heat the interior works better. Or a linked seat/steering wheel heater...
As someone with no icing experience, would cranking a subwoofer accelerate the de-icing? I imagine mechanical agitation is more energy efficient.
Melvin, your needs make sense to me, having lived in a rainier and cooler climate location with less sunny days during my 50 working/commuting years.
just a heads up....In my experience with this forum site 1) forum members may reply with their EV experiences , which is useful but they do not yet own an Aptera, so 2) if you don’t get replies in the forum “direct from Aptera” you may want to send these in short requests via the Ask a Question field under the WeFunder site “At this time”. For me, “not yet an EV owner”....reading Electric Vehicle owners “lessons learned“ and requests, like yours...are interesting and surely will be interesting to Aptera. I find Aptera provides meaningful replies at that site location. That is....as best they can “at this stage in their start up.
I had the good fortune to see and get a test drive in the past 2009 Aptera prototype vehicle , but the new Aptera seems light years ahead in what they are planning and so much new technology is now available.
Good Luck