My current car is around a 8-9 second 0 to 60 plug in hybrid. It's adequate for me. I understand the market advantage of being quicker. I'm not sure lowering the performance potential would gain all that much in weight savings, etc. and you could always drive with a lighter foot on the accelerator or provide an eco mode.
For long distances, instead of adding the weight/cost/theft of even air-cooled removable battery modules, I can borrow or swap of rent or fly. So I "only" need it to cover 99% of my daily use (US average of 40 miles) & for that, a 10kWh Aptera is plenty.
A lot of people have talked about removable battery packs, but it does not work well in practice due to the liquid cooling system, safety (400V), and structural needs. The extra connectors, mechanisms, and structural components needed would add about 100 lbs on their own. That 100 lbs would be better spent adding 10kW to a regular battery pack.
One thing I don't see mentioned in the "removeable battery pack" info/ideas. If you make a pack of fairly expensive batteries that is easily removed for charging, it's also going to be a prime target for thieves.
KiteBoarder stated "Why carry around a bigger battery, just for rare road-trips?" and this makes 150% sense.
#APTERA should look at an option to slide and connect battery pack modules into the #APTERA as needed. You want to just drive around in the city, to work and back? You definitely will not need all the battery pack modules inserted and connected - less weight also means less power consumption. You want to go on a road trip? Yip then all or most of the battery pack modules you can fit to cover at least the longest non stopping distance of the trip.
This also means that #APTERA could standardize on the cost of the #APTERA that comes standard with say two removable battery pack modules installed. Then if you want more modules to cover long distances or you want to "upgrade" for more distance, you could buy them as "extra add on packs". This is also in line with their motto of "Right to repair" - if the battery module fails after a few years then it will be a simple slide in and slide out operation.
Maybe there is come crossover point where the heavier wheel motors are able to absorb/dissapate more heat. The thermal mass might be an advantage in acceleration and deceleration? The motor could absorb the heat in an pulse acceleration cycle and release it over time without additional cooling?
OR, faster acceleration is a cool sales point! I know 3.5 sec 0-60 is a main selling point for me. 6 sec 0-60 isn't.
@my_discord_number_is_0328 Sort of, but I'm also wondering about the acceleration side of the equation. I'll make up an example that is probably not factually accurate but it may clarify the point. If a small motor needs 100% capacity to accelerate to 60 mph and it heats up to its maximum, it now needs to be cooled before it can accelerate again or it will overheat. Liquid cooling pumps need to run to cool the small motor before the next 0-60 run can be done. A large motor wouldn't be at temperature capacity on first pulse to 60. Maybe it needs 4 pulses to 60 within 1 minute to reach 100% temp. If the cooling pump runs when it hits 75% of temp, as long as the owner only accelerated to 60 once or twice in 2 minutes, the cooling never comes on. The bigger motor also lasts longer as it is running under much less stress. The bigger motor may last twice as long as a result.
Maybe another analogy with batteries. A small battery that is run thru many 0-100-0% charge discharge cycles is more stressed than a larger battery run thru 20-80-20% cycles.
Gas cars' back-up braking system is separate front & rear hydraulics. BEVs' "frictionless" back-up is separate front & rear motors, which of course are already there.
Gas cars' systems all share a single vacuum source/reservoir/cylinder to power them. My BEV's front & rear brakes share a single pump. So BEV's frictionless braking should be able to share a single HV drive battery "reservoir".
For the relatively rare occasions that regen power can't go into the drive battery*, maybe Aptera could just uses an extra-high-powered heater & A/C, so the computer can just max them both out to dissipate regen power.
*Aptera's extremely low weight & extreme efficiency mean that it can more easily afford to set aside sufficient battery capacity for most regen needs when accidentally charged to "100%" on the gauge, which on my own EV is really only about 85% of full capacity. I believe Teslas go to around 95%.
Folks keep mentioning this notion of regenerative braking becoming problematic when the battery is full. Seriously? I drive my current BEV a mile down the road and the battery has already lost one or more percent of charge. It takes several seconds, maybe a minute or more of regenerative braking going down a significant hill slope to recover 1%. Being anywhere near 100% at that point is extremely unlikely. You would have to really work at it anyway. Seems far more of a distraction to keep bringing that up as a realistic concern.
Seriously. It is the BMS which tapers back the maximum charge and discharge currents depending on parameters like SOC and battery temperature. How strongly the BMS acts on regenerative braking varies between models and manufacturers. On my Tesla Model S there is a power gauge which 'blanks' out reduced drive power and/or regen braking power with dashed yellow lines. I see those lines quite often in winter at the start of a trip and have seen it when I (accidentally) charged the car to 100%. So yes, it is a realistic concern.
The way out would be an array of high power resistors like on Diesel-Electric locos for the Dynamic brake. I once saw a solar race car used in the Chilean Andes and there were heater cores of hairdryers installed.....when questioning they were not for cabin heating but for regen (well...sort of) braking.
In any case: You need a back-up braking system anyway as it is a legal requirement.
Once in wheel motors can replace traditional braking systems entirely with regeneration (and this moment is either already here or will be shortly), this entire discussion is moot and you can have your cake and eat it too because weight savings from removing braking systems will more than make up for the unsprung weight of the larger motors required to remove the brakes. At least this is how I see it.
I've always loved efficient cars and used to hypermile my old Honda Insight MT which was a fun and rewarding challenge. Now that I drive a full EV, the cost to drive is so low I don't really care or worry about maximizing efficiency any longer because the difference between stomping on the pedal and driving with a feathery touch is relatively negligible.
Is not that easy to get rid of the traditional brake. Most EVs limit regenerative braking in cold conditions or when the battery is full. It is also a requirement to have a secondary braking system.
I could say "you cannot compare 2 wheeler with 3 wheelers"😉, but you've shown that you can, for some aspects:
In your example of how that can be done, regardless of the total number of wheels, braking reduces rear wheel traction. "Hard" braking with a short-wheelbase & high-CG like a bike can even lift the rear wheel(s). However Aptera has a much longer wheelbase & proportionally lower CG. I can get more rear-only braking than I need for normal driving with just the handbrake on my car that has about 40% of its weight on the rear.
Another example is that with either 3 or 4 wheels, adding front roll stiffness reduces body roll & oversteer.
Aptera says 30% of its weight is on the rear tire, but that can be easily increased by deleting the FRONT half of the battery. Maybe to around 40%, just like my own car with plenty of available rear-only braking.
i3 & the just-released VW id-4 are RWD & regen & wet takeoff with traction control are fine. For daily "chill mode" driving you'd still be able to do 100% of braking with regen. If needed, install the half-size battery in the rear half of the space, to give a bit more rear weight bias. If that makes it oversteer, just stiffen the front swaybar, same as for any 4-wheeler.
You cannot compare 4 wheeler with 3 wheelers. I could be wrong but the Apera does not look like it has a lot % of weight at the rear. On my electric motorcycle the rear wheel almost lifts off when braking hard.
People pay big bucks to save 5kg (11Lb) per wheel. That happens to be the entire weight of each of my own current wheels!
Doubling Aptera's current draw is still 20% less than any other EV, so we'd be fine there. There's also less maximum current when there's less kW of total motor power. Reducing the battery reduces pollution & resource use.
Seems like motor savings might be better by reducing quantity to 1 (RWD) instead of reducing multiple motor sizes.
With rear wheel drive only you might have issues taking off from a wet paddock and you certainly would reduce regenerative braking to something meaningless.
The Elaphe S400 is 23kW, but reducing the power by more than half only saves 5kg/wheel. Three S200's and controllers likely cost and weigh more in total than 2 M700's, yet offer 70% of the performance. They also run at a different voltage (100V), so would need other changes too.
Tesla and the Mach E have shown that acceleration is what persuades many Americans to make the switch to EV's. Faster than most sports cars and better for the environment at the same time. The market for slow EV's seems limited, given the relatively low cost differential between high and low power electric motors..
A 12.5kWh pack would be $1.5-2k cheaper than the 25kWh battery. They are using the battery case to strengthen the composite shell, so you might still have the cost/weight of the larger battery case, so you might only save 100 lbs going down to 12.5kWh. Also the doubled current draw per cell would reduce the battery pack lifetime somewhat.
Fully agreed! Less battery weight would allow it to retain adequate acceleration with much lower motor size or quantity (just gimme the 1 rear motor). Also even better cornering & braking.
10kWh would have more range than an i3 or early Leaf or eGolf.
@OceanDragon Aptera's FAQ spreadsheet says 50kW DC, which is about 500 miles per hour (250% as fast as 50kW in any other EV).
REx's 2.6L/year of oil is 2.6L more than a BEV that fully recharges with no downtime while you work OR sleep.
It is just nice to connect an extension cord at night OR at work & not have to worry about running out of battery OR needing an oil & filter change, spark plugs, air & fuel filters.
There ARE also at least 20 free public chargers right on my normal 20-mile 1-way drive. I never really need to, but I CAN stop there & my car is topped off long before I've caught up online with my phone.
Don't get me wrong, i3 REx (or high-range 250-mile Aptera) could be a decent economical choice IF you do a lot of road-trips & would have to rent because your friends won't let you swap cars with them, they just doesn't fit my lifestyle needs or environmental concerns 😉.
Actually I'm very impressed that you only use 3 gallons per year & 2.6L of oil. You may also have reusable air & gas filters, after all, it is a BMW motorbike engine. Just not QUITE as good as zero gallons, zero liters, & zero filters.
That's an interesting thought. I thought I could drive 400 miles and then rest for ten days. Then drive 400 miles and rest another ten days. Maybe if I tried this in the arctic, I could do it in less than a day.
We all know about the 25 through 100kWh model choices but they mentioned once about considering “later“ even something below the 25 kWh offering. Surely under the lowest price we know of now
I couldn't agree with you more. Many people do not realize that 0-60 mph times under 6 seconds is pretty decent. I would rather lighten up each wheel and get a better ride and handling rather than have a 3.5 sec dragster. A descent ride isn't a priority on a dragster, but essential on a road car.
Right, but even if it doesn't save MUCH money or weight, it saves the resources & energy of producing 250% as much battery as I'd prefer to purchase.
My current car is around a 8-9 second 0 to 60 plug in hybrid. It's adequate for me. I understand the market advantage of being quicker. I'm not sure lowering the performance potential would gain all that much in weight savings, etc. and you could always drive with a lighter foot on the accelerator or provide an eco mode.
For long distances, instead of adding the weight/cost/theft of even air-cooled removable battery modules, I can borrow or swap of rent or fly. So I "only" need it to cover 99% of my daily use (US average of 40 miles) & for that, a 10kWh Aptera is plenty.
A lot of people have talked about removable battery packs, but it does not work well in practice due to the liquid cooling system, safety (400V), and structural needs. The extra connectors, mechanisms, and structural components needed would add about 100 lbs on their own. That 100 lbs would be better spent adding 10kW to a regular battery pack.
KiteBoarder stated "Why carry around a bigger battery, just for rare road-trips?" and this makes 150% sense.
#APTERA should look at an option to slide and connect battery pack modules into the #APTERA as needed. You want to just drive around in the city, to work and back? You definitely will not need all the battery pack modules inserted and connected - less weight also means less power consumption. You want to go on a road trip? Yip then all or most of the battery pack modules you can fit to cover at least the longest non stopping distance of the trip.
This also means that #APTERA could standardize on the cost of the #APTERA that comes standard with say two removable battery pack modules installed. Then if you want more modules to cover long distances or you want to "upgrade" for more distance, you could buy them as "extra add on packs". This is also in line with their motto of "Right to repair" - if the battery module fails after a few years then it will be a simple slide in and slide out operation.
Maybe there is come crossover point where the heavier wheel motors are able to absorb/dissapate more heat. The thermal mass might be an advantage in acceleration and deceleration? The motor could absorb the heat in an pulse acceleration cycle and release it over time without additional cooling?
OR, faster acceleration is a cool sales point! I know 3.5 sec 0-60 is a main selling point for me. 6 sec 0-60 isn't.
Gas cars' back-up braking system is separate front & rear hydraulics. BEVs' "frictionless" back-up is separate front & rear motors, which of course are already there.
Gas cars' systems all share a single vacuum source/reservoir/cylinder to power them. My BEV's front & rear brakes share a single pump. So BEV's frictionless braking should be able to share a single HV drive battery "reservoir".
For the relatively rare occasions that regen power can't go into the drive battery*, maybe Aptera could just uses an extra-high-powered heater & A/C, so the computer can just max them both out to dissipate regen power.
*Aptera's extremely low weight & extreme efficiency mean that it can more easily afford to set aside sufficient battery capacity for most regen needs when accidentally charged to "100%" on the gauge, which on my own EV is really only about 85% of full capacity. I believe Teslas go to around 95%.
Folks keep mentioning this notion of regenerative braking becoming problematic when the battery is full. Seriously? I drive my current BEV a mile down the road and the battery has already lost one or more percent of charge. It takes several seconds, maybe a minute or more of regenerative braking going down a significant hill slope to recover 1%. Being anywhere near 100% at that point is extremely unlikely. You would have to really work at it anyway. Seems far more of a distraction to keep bringing that up as a realistic concern.
Once in wheel motors can replace traditional braking systems entirely with regeneration (and this moment is either already here or will be shortly), this entire discussion is moot and you can have your cake and eat it too because weight savings from removing braking systems will more than make up for the unsprung weight of the larger motors required to remove the brakes. At least this is how I see it.
I've always loved efficient cars and used to hypermile my old Honda Insight MT which was a fun and rewarding challenge. Now that I drive a full EV, the cost to drive is so low I don't really care or worry about maximizing efficiency any longer because the difference between stomping on the pedal and driving with a feathery touch is relatively negligible.
With you 100%! If only, I would be totally onboard.
I could say "you cannot compare 2 wheeler with 3 wheelers"😉, but you've shown that you can, for some aspects:
In your example of how that can be done, regardless of the total number of wheels, braking reduces rear wheel traction. "Hard" braking with a short-wheelbase & high-CG like a bike can even lift the rear wheel(s). However Aptera has a much longer wheelbase & proportionally lower CG. I can get more rear-only braking than I need for normal driving with just the handbrake on my car that has about 40% of its weight on the rear.
Another example is that with either 3 or 4 wheels, adding front roll stiffness reduces body roll & oversteer.
Aptera says 30% of its weight is on the rear tire, but that can be easily increased by deleting the FRONT half of the battery. Maybe to around 40%, just like my own car with plenty of available rear-only braking.
i3 & the just-released VW id-4 are RWD & regen & wet takeoff with traction control are fine. For daily "chill mode" driving you'd still be able to do 100% of braking with regen. If needed, install the half-size battery in the rear half of the space, to give a bit more rear weight bias. If that makes it oversteer, just stiffen the front swaybar, same as for any 4-wheeler.
People pay big bucks to save 5kg (11Lb) per wheel. That happens to be the entire weight of each of my own current wheels!
Doubling Aptera's current draw is still 20% less than any other EV, so we'd be fine there. There's also less maximum current when there's less kW of total motor power. Reducing the battery reduces pollution & resource use.
Seems like motor savings might be better by reducing quantity to 1 (RWD) instead of reducing multiple motor sizes.
The Elaphe S400 is 23kW, but reducing the power by more than half only saves 5kg/wheel. Three S200's and controllers likely cost and weigh more in total than 2 M700's, yet offer 70% of the performance. They also run at a different voltage (100V), so would need other changes too.
Tesla and the Mach E have shown that acceleration is what persuades many Americans to make the switch to EV's. Faster than most sports cars and better for the environment at the same time. The market for slow EV's seems limited, given the relatively low cost differential between high and low power electric motors..
A 12.5kWh pack would be $1.5-2k cheaper than the 25kWh battery. They are using the battery case to strengthen the composite shell, so you might still have the cost/weight of the larger battery case, so you might only save 100 lbs going down to 12.5kWh. Also the doubled current draw per cell would reduce the battery pack lifetime somewhat.
Fully agreed! Less battery weight would allow it to retain adequate acceleration with much lower motor size or quantity (just gimme the 1 rear motor). Also even better cornering & braking.
10kWh would have more range than an i3 or early Leaf or eGolf.
We all know about the 25 through 100kWh model choices but they mentioned once about considering “later“ even something below the 25 kWh offering. Surely under the lowest price we know of now
But this is a gray area for me
I couldn't agree with you more. Many people do not realize that 0-60 mph times under 6 seconds is pretty decent. I would rather lighten up each wheel and get a better ride and handling rather than have a 3.5 sec dragster. A descent ride isn't a priority on a dragster, but essential on a road car.