I would consider a cheaper version of this concept. I have no doubt you have already considered this list in far greater detail and I would love to hear your thoughts.
- Single driven rear wheel with belt drive.
- FRP Body
- Hard coated lexan body Panels only in white
- Hard coated lexan window
- Body Panels easily and cheaply replaced
- 3rd party android tablet, interface for non-safety controls.
- JBL Flip equivalent in the dash for the cars audio.
- Battery good for ~ 100kms
- Use as many parts from existing scooters, motorbikes, quad-bikes as possible.
- Standard 240/110V charging connector.
- 50kW Power
- Regular doors.
- Only the minimum safety features, front airbags and some sort of crumple zone.
- 3d printed or machined metal parts? Steel tubular space frame front crumple zone?
- Car arrives as a kit the user assembles and can self service when parts fail. Electrical connections will need to be IP rated plugs. Open source component designs and let China happen.
- Standard motorbike/scooter tyres.
- Open source the entire car. Aptera can focus on change management, regional standards compliance and base builds.
The way to bring the cost down is to have a simple design with reliable components/parts and take advantage of economies of scale. QUIT trying to perturbate the vehicle with all of these extraneous suggestions. They are for post production consideration.
Also, I believe that management would like to set a price that balances the supply and demand curve (Econ 101) which would maximize their target market while making a profit target for share holders. Also Econ 101.
There is a science to both of the above that is used routinely in product and service pricing
It would be really cool if there is a way to hard brake the electric motors independent of regen or needing a braking resistor. Maybe the motor hub design can include high impedance windings that can be electronically switched in. The hub will need good heat dissipation... the design would need to err on safe braking over preventing thermal damage to the motor. Normal brake discs get up to around 500C, well beyond the design spec of any motor. If someone has figured it out, awesome.
Doesn't the cost have to cover design, engineering, parts, labor, insurance, and future development? I would really like to have EVs be ultra inexpensive, but I worry that they would be only available for a short time because the price didn't cover the cost of running the business.
@Suresh Subawickrama The "load bank" could probably be just running the heater and A/C full-blast simultaneously, weighted very slightly to maintain cabin temperature. Over-spec them both as needed to absorb enough energy.
Aptera has the advantage yet again: This new tech is much more applicable to a lightweight vehicle's lower braking energy requirement.
This discussion seemed to get a little off track. I have opted for the upgraded sound system. Someone once made the comment that they listen to music very little at home, but listen to it regularly in their car everyday to work. In many respects, spending money on quality sound makes more sense in your car than in your home. I grew up in an era where you listened to CD quality music on high end audio systems. I feel sorry for today's generation who don't know what they are missing listening to compressed audio files though tinny piezoelectric speakers on their phone or even through headphones. With terabytes of memory available for so little money and occupying so little space, I don't understand why we haven't migrated back to uncompressed audio, other than people no longer know the difference. One of the ways our society has regressed, in my opinion.
Note that the motor controller is already EXTREMELY reliable, by necessity: You can't have it stop when pulling out to pass, or go when you're stopped at a red light!
ALL-wheel EM braking & a mechanical (hand?) brake on the rear would still be a HUGE savings of cost (& mass, rotational inertia, & unsprung weight), deleting:
- 2 brake discs
- 2 brake calipers with pads
- 3 brake hoses
- 3 brake lines
- Master cylinder with reservoir(s) & fluid
- Brake fluid pump/motor (required on all BEVs)
This was NOT my idea! I, too, would have thought it unsafe or illegal, but check out the comments starting at 27:39 of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ5sU2r-xxw
I don't think relying on electromagnetic brakes would be legal or desirable, because a failure in the motor controller would disable all brakes. Even bicycles are required to have redundant brakes in many (most?) parts of the world. EM brakes only the front wheels and a mechanical/hydraulic brake on the rear wheel might be OK.
Here's a potential cost-saver from the vid linked below: Fully-electromagnetic braking is now available! Rear brake would require a motor there, but that only adds $2.5k WITH the disc brake. Deleting the friction brakes saves weight, complexity, & the cost of all these parts & their installation:
- 3 brake discs
- 3 brake calipers with pads
- 3 brake hoses
- 3 brake lines
- Master cylinder with reservoir(s) & fluid
- Brake fluid pump/motor (required on all BEVs)
- Parking brake system.
With a "Park" pawl on every wheel, a parking brake isn't needed (FWD "P" locks only the front wheels, & the parking brake locks the back).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ5sU2r-xxw
built in speakers dont need to exist at all b/c phones can have aptera app that keeps notification noises off and phone speakers are enough. even if people want higher quality audio, built in speakers are replaced by a single portable speaker that cant be attached on via such universal size phone holder.
the Ac/heater external to the one that manages drivetrain temp can be a prtable heater too
instead of a big screen, just have a structural platform to allow accessories to be held onto by a universal size phone holder type device. this way someone can use their phone for changing navigation, even changing temp etc (there are ways to make up for annoying to use screens especially small oneshttps://www.aptera.us/forum/main/comment/602479f18dd5cd0017604a22)
not only can customers save money like this but the speaker, heater, phone can be used for other things besides being comfortable in the car. low budget people and hypermilers can choose to wear better insulated clothing and not pay for any of this stuff, but resale value holds b/c u can always buy universal device holder, as many speakers and whatever people may want, a humidifier etc. this also allows for easier device upgrade vs going to a shop to replace built in devices.
mentions advertising business model for non essential parts to cut develoment cost :https://www.aptera.us/forum/main/comment/6032ac06b65b710017064beb
device to attach accessories to car: https://www.aptera.us/forum/main/comment/6031daa3b24694001774f006 for ex. these interior things like extra screens and speakers besides users phone, humidifier etc
https://www.aptera.us/forum/aptera-design-discussion/owners-manual-guide-folder-in-screen-adding-more-fun-sell-ability-some-efficiency-improvementshttps://www.aptera.us/forum/aptera-design-discussion/increasing-average-efficiencies-by-rental-of-usually-uneeded-things
I think that their current price point is ok, but I will put money that it will not be reached due to the amount of labor to fabricate the composite parts. The batteries are just a part number with a free market competing to improve the performance and decrease the cost. That is out of their control. I remember interviewing for an aircraft company that was in the process of building a $170k light sport aircraft. They were going to be built in the Bay Area and supposedly had a huge backlog. Fast forward a few years and it is now expected to cost $300k + and being manufactured in Mexico. I commute 150 miles a day and I was head over heels when this car was first introduced. Low cost LiPo batteries make it much more feasible, but the cost is approaching Tesla territory.
Management has no interest in dropping the price, after saying that they already have $100 M in orders. If they want to have a steady list of future orders, the right pricing of the product is very important, especially since they currently do not qualify for the $7500 tax credit. Unless that changes, a lot of these orders will not materialize. A fully loaded Aptera with the 100KWH batteries approaches the cost of many new EV cars coming to market. No comparison from a niche product, however nice and futuristic it is.
In the recent interview Aptera CEOs stated that the battery is still the most expensive part. Their 60% efficiency advantage over all other EVs allows for 60% battery reduction. They should take advantage of that, offering economy models with "only" triple or even "just" double most people's 40-mile daily drive. As-is I'd have to waste money I don't have, buying a battery pack that goes 625% of that.
The body structure might not have as much room for cost-cutting, as it seems integral to the overall safety/strength/roll-cage. It still might be possible to use much less expensive but slightly heavier material such as fiberglass instead of carbon-fiber, at least for the outer skin. Any weight gain would be more than compensated by even a very slightly smaller battery, like maybe "only" 500% of what's necessary 🙄.
As a manufacturing engineer with a background in aerospace composites, I think that the biggest cost will be creating the body structure and bringing it to a presentable finish. My suggestions for cost reduction would be using a "crushcore" process for the exterior panels and flat panel cut-and-fold for the inner structure. The crush core process has a cycle time of less than 30 minutes for a pre-CNC trimmed part that is structural and highly repeatable. The flat panel requires some cure time, but little labor as panel finish can be easily covered in a fabric material. I love the car and the concept, but I think that to scale the fabrication of the composites will be challenging. Resin infusion provides a great finish with lots of fabric control, but is incredibly wasteful (vacuum bagging material) and tool intensive (tool needs to be perfectly cleaned and prepped before each part is layed up) with a very long cycle time for the tool. Maybe 3 per day? Good for low volume, but not scalable.
With today's phones all we need is a holder and source of power for keeping the maps, music and news flowing.
I'd been thinking my "no stereo" idea was a bit weird, but now remembered how TVs now come with crap sound, since anybody who cares at all is going to add their own system.
That's pretty minor though. Just at least give me the option of a tiny-but-upgradable battery. With Aptera's peerless efficiency even just 5kWh is plenty for my own US average commute, & lighter for even safer braking, cornering & acceleration.
A couple measurements I took on my own 7-year-old BEV:
- It doesn't lose even 1% per week to vampire drain, & it's only got 21kWh usable capacity. Drain is about 22mA with the alarm armed, & 18 with it off. I doubt Aptera will be much worse.
- Parked with a pet when literally freezing out, my inefficient resistance heater* takes only about 1kW, which for a long-range Aptera is 1% per hour, but please don't leave your poor dog in a car that long.
*Aptera says their first production run may have something almost as bad.
Cost cut to well under $18k, by simple elimination, so more drivers can afford to save the planet. All pretty easily upgradable later*:
- Option of no solar as shown above, for those with a standard wall outlet at home or work.
- Option of no wheel covers, as shown above.
- Option of plain mirrors as shown above.
- Option of small upgradable "commuter" battery. US avg commute uses 4kWh.
- Option of single-motor rear-wheel drive (sufficient power for lighter battery & motors).
That should bring the price well below $18k, but here are a couple others that might help a bit too:
- Option of home assembly (click here for forum thread).
- Option of no sound system, or at least a super-cheap 2-speaker one (there's no engine or even wind to drown out!)
* Snap-in additional battery modules, bolt-on solar hatch, hood, dashboard cover (or maybe even peel-&-stick), wheel covers, motor-adding parts kit to switch to FWD, rearview camera kit.
Battery packs should cost no more than $100/kwh. It looks like the packs are 20kwh each And should cost $2000 each not $4000 as currently priced.
should be able to add additional packs in the future.
I like the idea of cost-cutting by deletion. For example driving the US average daily distance I don't even use half of my Fiat 500e's 87-mile range, & I don't mind stopping to charge at free public stations while I go online with my phone. Aptera is SO efficient it would take much less time there, so I'd be fine with no solar cells & also with a much cheaper, lighter battery, as low as 8kWh. Also downsize the wheel pants to small cheap barely-legal fenders, & delete the rear wheel skirt. Personally I think it looks better like this anyway & is a tiny bit lighter:
Basic, Very basic for me. Nothing necessarily electronic or automatic. Mechanical all the ways possible.
Wow! How can I prevent ALL of these options from being considered. Just the car that is shown on their website please.
I live in a condo with no garage and no way of charging at home. With your vehicle's efficiency, I would expect removable battery modules and in-home chargers would be feasible. I'd prefer that to a solar charging option. Based on the weight and density of Tesla's packs, the Aptera could have, say, 6 modules at around 25 lbs each that get 50 miles fully charged . One could buy the car separately from the modules and buy as many modules as desired for up to 300 miles of range. That and 50 kW DC fast charging (or more) at an affordable price and you got a deal!
The centre console area and dash to be made from a single seamless piece of shaped clear glass/lexan. It will be backed in white apart from areas where a display is located. In these areas electric smart transition glass will be installed through which bright simple indicators from the LCD beneath will shine and appear to be floating controls on the seamless white dash. If video is required or a more complex interface such as navigation that section of transition glass will turn clear as required.
There will be one dash haptic control, a rotary dial whose top surface is a contextual LCD as well as an up/down/left/right rocker. Above the dial buttons that change what the dial controls. Chair/HVAC/stereo/and cursor control of the central screen. The central screen will also be touch screen and have all the same functions but its often convenient when driving to have a controls you don't need to look at to articulate, i.e, a knob.
Slamstop Doors or equivalent. https://motowey.com/products/soft-close-car-doors
I want the lip of the door to have a sensor that will arrests its outward movement if its going to hit an object / wall / car.
To open the door I want an area of the doors exterior panel to be capacitive touch sensing, and for the door to follow your hand within velocity / acceleration limits and filtering. I want the area around my hands touch to illuminate gently and warmly through the cars panel. This feature will only work when in proximity to the car / rfid card swipe.
Automated door closing would be nice too.
And I want music chair bass vibrators. https://www.digikey.com.au/en/product-highlight/p/pui-audio/subwoofer-exciters
And either a battery so large that charging is infrequent, or a system that automatically charges the car when parked in my garage. Maybe using some sort of RF Airfuel system if the standard permits sufficient power https://airfuel.org/use-cases/
My fantasy Aptera design list.
- Front windscreen like the Tesla Model X to make the cabin feel bigger
- No visible front/rear light clusters. White and seamless with smart glass layer behind body panels that turns clear when lights are required. http://www.smartglassinternational.com/electric-switchable-glass/
- Ability to raise/lower the vehicle for easier ingress/egress and stability at speed / cross wind.
- hydraulically cross linked front suspension to allow excellent articulation while preventing roll. https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15123918/the-anti-anti-roll-bar-tennecos-kinetic-suspension-explained-feature/
- Front and rear wheel shrouds that can be lifted a few inches for loose surface driving / curb mounting.
- Standardised cartridge like batteries that can be swapped as technology improves or on failure.
- Full electronics. TPMS, keyless entry, self driving mobeye or other, sim card slot for entertainment unit.
- Ability to remote view car camera footage / security alerts / footage auto backed up on wifi.
- Fun reversing camera that shows the vehicle top down.
- Energy efficient Air conditioning based on desiccant / evaporation / waste heat design. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_g4nT4a28U
- Properly engineered gan-fet based power electronics.
- Country specific socket outlet in car.
- Wireless phone charging nook.
- Google maps and voice assistant integration.
- zero contact windshield wipers that use air cushions.
- windshield wiper in compartment with retracting cover for aero.
- Good passive cabin noise cancelling
- Tasteful interior lighting with configurable colours and fade times.
- Ventilated seats that work as a hvac inlet, not blower.
- Cabin with positive pressurisation and carbon/hepa/UV filter.
- Seats that appear to float off the floor
- Side mirror cabin screens retract and hide seamlessly when in self driving mode.
- Artificial tasteful external electric car sounds for pedestrian safety.
- Cup holders made from silicone that can stretch around my bottle/cup and can be removed for cleaning.
- Soft touch interior.
- Matt finish on centre touch screen.
- knobs and buttons that can be clipped onto the centre console and allocated to functions i.e. climate control.
- Doors that swing upward and keep the rain off me.
- No panel gaps. Some sort of clever gasket.
- Doors that use a clever gasket to become gapless like a solar racing car.
- Illumination around the vehicle on ingress/egress when dark.
- Decent sound quality
- Climate control that initiates on approach to the car
I appreciate that they have significant sunk costs in the composite body and other aspects. I like to imagine that a car concerned with saving the world will be designed at a price point, feature-set and target an niche that maximises its ability to supplant existing petrol vehicles. But then again maybe a halo vehicle is intended to headline like a concept car and find ownership with celebrities with the ends of creating brand awareness and capitol. In any case I love the clean slate approach to efficiency.
Some of the things on your list would save costs, but others would probably not. The early electric Aptera prototypes had the rear wheel driven by a belt. It was abandoned, I think, because the traction in the center of the lane can be problematic, because of oil leaked from ICE vehicles. Plus developing a completely different drivetrain would be a big cost. They have mentioned on their website a FWD drive version, using 2 in-wheel motors would be possible for a lower priced model.
Changing the design and construction of the chassis would require a HUGE cost to develop. So, that would make 3 or 4 of your suggestions cost more to bring to market; not less. Doing a different door hinge design, would also be a big cost, and would probably not have a lower price. Ditto for different tires. The smaller battery would save a fair bit of cost, but I can't think that even 100 miles would be enough; let alone 100 kilometers. The smallest battery they are currently talking about is about 400 miles of range. Let's see what the actual price for that model is, and then discuss? Same goes for the J1772 suggestion - the Bolt EV has the CCS as a $750 option. Which is not nothing - but as a Bolt owner, and having driven multiple EVs for 5+ years, I would always want the CCS plug *especially* with a small battery.