I would love that Aptera had a modular design approach for the batteries. That means that in the future the company would sell upgrade kits with new generation batteries such as lithium iron phosphate or supercapacitors.
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At 78, I drive about 2000 miles/yr., no long trips anymore. So, do I need the 250, or 1000, with FSD? The 1K would be insurance for an emergency trip. Or, do I need to wait for Robo taxis, no car at all? I couldn't make. up my mind. Then I remembered, Aptera is more than just a car, a convenience, it's a small miracle I want to own and "play" with. And I want it as quick as possible, time is short.
I'm still waiting for my flying car and personal jetpack. (Yeah, I know about the various prototypes, and soon to be on the market toys, but I ain't flying one yet.)
Ya, reality-check is right!: "Simple Math", HALF the range of a base Aptera is OVER THREE TIMES the average daily US drive. For the occasional over-4-times-longer trip: Borrow, rent, or drive to the airport.
I want a 125-mile Aptera. Less monetary & environmental cost. PLUS, less weight means even better tire longevity, charge times, acceleration, braking, cornering, etc.
I am a proud reservation holder of this potentially great EV. Now if money was no object would the top of the line 3 motor 1000 mile version be the best choice for all? If 90% of your driving would be simple commuting 20 to 30 miles a day would it be reasonable to carry all those extra batteries that would never be utilized. Would having higher capacity than would ever be used be beneficial or would carrying the extra weight be reasonable. To the end user since the solar option would eliminate any need to plug in given the proposed range other than the initial cost there should be no noticeable difference. The difference would be the economy of scale. Aptera is going to be competing for a supply of batteries that will be a challenge at best.
My proposal:
Putting aside the 2 or 3 motor option… Battery pack options. Make the minimum pack standard This would allow good balance and placement for weight. Make an auxiliary pack that is variable in size and easily replaceable. This would allow upgrades in range and later upgrade in technology without major changes to the system. This would also fall in line with the right to repair and encourage 3rd party options. The system might be used in parallel or as a large reserve “tank”
Benefits.
Lower initial cost for both Aptera and the end user
If only one configuration for the base battery pack is made and installed the production line would be easier and cheaper.
Faster time to production. If there is a shortage of cells available it would not delay the production. The auxiliary battery packs could be delivered at a later date. I know I would happily take possession of the Aptera 6 months earlier and wait receive the desired range.
This is a new vehicle. It is difficult to know exactly what range to COMMIT to. What actual range will get on a daily basis. How easy is it to charge in your particular situation?
Simple Math… The base range of 250 mile pack formed to the belly of the body as planned. Then 3 slots for 250 mile packs that can be added one at a time. The packs would be fixed external size and could be added in any combination without changing the front to back weight distribution.
Think of the first EV cars out there with ranges below 80 miles…. If those were designed with slots with battery pack for additional range think of how easily they could be brought up to date with cheaper higher capacity packs.
Reality check. Packs would not be cheap. Would not be super easy to change out. The electronics of changing and maintaining would have to be addressed. Connections would have to be addressed. Weight of each pack would not facilitate the installation or change without help.
@OceanDragon Reportedly, LiFePO4 cells are EXTREMELY safe, even when punctured. So their much lighter packaging requirements mean there's less difference in battery pack capacity per pound than cell-level specs indicate.
They're also continuing to improve capacity, & "new" to the scene with "cell-to-pack" tech reducing the weight even more.
They may still add a bit of weight for the same range, but for example Aptera could offer an economy-model 250-mile range that might weigh as much as their current 400-miler.
Or an inexpensive 400-miler that weighed as much as their current 600.
Even if it weighed as much as their 1,000-mile it would be fine, especially with double the cycle life.
Also, for sure BMW i3 put larger packs in customers' existing cars, & I believe Renault was also doing that in Europe.
@OceanDragon Since I crammed so many points into one post, unless you're specific, I can't tell which one(s) you are questioning.
If you happen to mean the last one, it's quite possible that BMW &/or Renault did also swap out the BMS, charger, & inverter. However it seems to me that keeping the cell count the same, with just larger capacity cells that fit in the same space (which is what BMW did), the voltage stays the same so the charger & inverter may still work, & maybe even the BMS.
NIO uses a swapable pack which enables both fast battery pack swaps for charging and also dropping in larger or smaller packs as needed. Personally I think this is a terrible idea, it adds to the expense, the pack can't be a structural part of the chassis and most importantly it introduces a significant point of failure. Connectors are bad and a swapable pack requires high power connectors and also fasteners that have to hold a very heavy load, it's asking for trouble.
The battery in an EV if properly managed should be able to last ten years at least probably more, that's good enough. The most important thing is reliability and to achieve that things should be as simple as possible. The ideal is that a car should become like a TV, you buy it, take it home and it doesn't break for years and years and when it finally does break you're happy about it because it mean that you can replace your old obsolete unit with a new more advanced one.
That's treading awfully close to an embrace of design for obsolescence; a product manufacturing philosophy that primarily serves to keep consumers buying what is essentially the same old thing over and over again and never mind the exhaustion of all the resources and energy that gets bound up and discarded in the process.
Let's admit that recycling is still mostly just a gimmick.
I prefer Aptera's more nuanced approach of making a robust, durable and maximally future-proof core structure and then making the various working and decorative elements more-or-less easily replaceable when they wear out. I expect that will include the battery. Yeah, you may need a proper service shop to do some of that in but still.
That is not an easy task that they have set for themselves and I'm sure there will be a lot of room for improvement in the initial release. I'm with them for that journey though.
While I am intrigued with the idea of a swappable battery pack, and if properly engineered it could be workable in certain circumstances were charging is just unavailable, I prefer Aptera's current design. My hope is that they design the system with the ability to replace and upgrade in 10 years time. Motors, batteries, and software all should be upgradeable in time. The right to repair should coincide with the right to upgrade. I love the outdoors and the ability to use a Jeep or side by side. These vehicle are highly upgradeable. My hope is that there will be a large aftermarket accessory industry built around this vehicle. I can imagine that the suspension could be upgraded. There is no way Aptera could afford to put together the ultimate suspension for every driving scenario. If your a pilot, engineer, geek, or experimenter this is the vehicle for you. I believe the designers will ultimately provide us with a very robust platform in which we can explore the limits of transportation with the ability to customize to our needs.
Hi Juan. Lithium iron phosphate are actually an older generation of battery. They do not have the same energy capacity as the newer generation li ion cells, so they are not as popular because of their weight. But they are a safer battery in that they are somewhat resistant to catching on fire. They have the added benefit of being able to go through almost twice the number of charge/discharge cycles.
Don, upgrading to a larger battery (which no electric car can do that I know of) is not possible without changing over the BMS (battery management system), charger, and inverter. So it is not as easy as just adding more cells. Second, one does not want to mix new cells with older cells if possible, for their charge/discharge characteristics would be sl different. All batteries mature in their characteristics over time. I would agree with you that battery chemistries are always modernizing. Right now pursuing a lithium free cell is the major goal of research. I don't believe a super-capacitor would be integrated in a sub-compact cycle in this economy price range.
At 78, I drive about 2000 miles/yr., no long trips anymore. So, do I need the 250, or 1000, with FSD? The 1K would be insurance for an emergency trip. Or, do I need to wait for Robo taxis, no car at all? I couldn't make. up my mind. Then I remembered, Aptera is more than just a car, a convenience, it's a small miracle I want to own and "play" with. And I want it as quick as possible, time is short.
Ya, reality-check is right!: "Simple Math", HALF the range of a base Aptera is OVER THREE TIMES the average daily US drive. For the occasional over-4-times-longer trip: Borrow, rent, or drive to the airport.
I want a 125-mile Aptera. Less monetary & environmental cost. PLUS, less weight means even better tire longevity, charge times, acceleration, braking, cornering, etc.
I am a proud reservation holder of this potentially great EV. Now if money was no object would the top of the line 3 motor 1000 mile version be the best choice for all? If 90% of your driving would be simple commuting 20 to 30 miles a day would it be reasonable to carry all those extra batteries that would never be utilized. Would having higher capacity than would ever be used be beneficial or would carrying the extra weight be reasonable. To the end user since the solar option would eliminate any need to plug in given the proposed range other than the initial cost there should be no noticeable difference. The difference would be the economy of scale. Aptera is going to be competing for a supply of batteries that will be a challenge at best.
My proposal:
Putting aside the 2 or 3 motor option… Battery pack options. Make the minimum pack standard This would allow good balance and placement for weight. Make an auxiliary pack that is variable in size and easily replaceable. This would allow upgrades in range and later upgrade in technology without major changes to the system. This would also fall in line with the right to repair and encourage 3rd party options. The system might be used in parallel or as a large reserve “tank”
Benefits.
Lower initial cost for both Aptera and the end user
If only one configuration for the base battery pack is made and installed the production line would be easier and cheaper.
Faster time to production. If there is a shortage of cells available it would not delay the production. The auxiliary battery packs could be delivered at a later date. I know I would happily take possession of the Aptera 6 months earlier and wait receive the desired range.
This is a new vehicle. It is difficult to know exactly what range to COMMIT to. What actual range will get on a daily basis. How easy is it to charge in your particular situation?
Simple Math… The base range of 250 mile pack formed to the belly of the body as planned. Then 3 slots for 250 mile packs that can be added one at a time. The packs would be fixed external size and could be added in any combination without changing the front to back weight distribution.
Think of the first EV cars out there with ranges below 80 miles…. If those were designed with slots with battery pack for additional range think of how easily they could be brought up to date with cheaper higher capacity packs.
Reality check. Packs would not be cheap. Would not be super easy to change out. The electronics of changing and maintaining would have to be addressed. Connections would have to be addressed. Weight of each pack would not facilitate the installation or change without help.
@OceanDragon Reportedly, LiFePO4 cells are EXTREMELY safe, even when punctured. So their much lighter packaging requirements mean there's less difference in battery pack capacity per pound than cell-level specs indicate.
They're also continuing to improve capacity, & "new" to the scene with "cell-to-pack" tech reducing the weight even more.
They may still add a bit of weight for the same range, but for example Aptera could offer an economy-model 250-mile range that might weigh as much as their current 400-miler.
Or an inexpensive 400-miler that weighed as much as their current 600.
Even if it weighed as much as their 1,000-mile it would be fine, especially with double the cycle life.
Also, for sure BMW i3 put larger packs in customers' existing cars, & I believe Renault was also doing that in Europe.
NIO uses a swapable pack which enables both fast battery pack swaps for charging and also dropping in larger or smaller packs as needed. Personally I think this is a terrible idea, it adds to the expense, the pack can't be a structural part of the chassis and most importantly it introduces a significant point of failure. Connectors are bad and a swapable pack requires high power connectors and also fasteners that have to hold a very heavy load, it's asking for trouble.
The battery in an EV if properly managed should be able to last ten years at least probably more, that's good enough. The most important thing is reliability and to achieve that things should be as simple as possible. The ideal is that a car should become like a TV, you buy it, take it home and it doesn't break for years and years and when it finally does break you're happy about it because it mean that you can replace your old obsolete unit with a new more advanced one.
Hi Juan. Lithium iron phosphate are actually an older generation of battery. They do not have the same energy capacity as the newer generation li ion cells, so they are not as popular because of their weight. But they are a safer battery in that they are somewhat resistant to catching on fire. They have the added benefit of being able to go through almost twice the number of charge/discharge cycles.
Don, upgrading to a larger battery (which no electric car can do that I know of) is not possible without changing over the BMS (battery management system), charger, and inverter. So it is not as easy as just adding more cells. Second, one does not want to mix new cells with older cells if possible, for their charge/discharge characteristics would be sl different. All batteries mature in their characteristics over time. I would agree with you that battery chemistries are always modernizing. Right now pursuing a lithium free cell is the major goal of research. I don't believe a super-capacitor would be integrated in a sub-compact cycle in this economy price range.
Yes, I had the idea to buy the smallest battery and then upgrade when feasible because the tech is improving quickly.